[2018 November Tests] England v South Africa (3/10/18)

[Nudger]

Not currently without significantly compromising on actual talent/quality. We do seem to have struggled to develop some truly brutish forwards for the last decade or so. Plenty of feist and aggression from our front row forwards, but in terms of back 5 I can't remember the last English player I watched and thought "what a monster". Even Lawes is actually quite slight for a lock and made his name smashing 10s, not 8s. Always feel a little bit jealous of NZ having two giant locks, SA having giants everywhere and Ireland with their back row animals.

That being said, we clearly have a lot of athletic and talented players, particularly at lock. Just feels like the team is lacking a bit of the grit from back in the days of Johnson, Grewcock, Moody, Worsley. I'd love for a team to be genuinely scared of our pack, but feel like the days of that might be gone. With that in mind + Halloween around the corner, England's scariest potential pack:

1. Genge
2. LCD
3. Sinckler
4. Stooke
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Rhodes
8. Vunipola

Luanchbury and kris for grunt laws on bench

 

[unrated]

I'm not trying to bash those two players as I rate them both massively. I also wouldn't question their bravery. But, in a Autumn/Winter test match in England against the Boks, size matters. Look at the teams that have been successful in the Champions Cup, The Premiership and The 6 Nations - it's overwhelmingly dominated by the teams with larger, dominant packs.

If those two play, these are the likely match-ups in the pack alongside how the England player stacks up:

Hepburn 6'1, 17st v Kitsoff 6'0, 19st - similar height, 2 stone lighter
Hartley 6'1, 17.5st v Marx 6'2, 18st - similar height, 0.5 stone lighter
Williams 6'3, 20.5st v Louw 6'1, 20st - 2 inches taller, 0.5 stone heavier
Itoje 6'5, 18st v Etzebeth 6'8, 19.5st - 3 inches shorter, 1.5 stone lighter
Kruis 6'6, 18st v |*Snyman 6'9, 18st - 3 inches shorter, similar weight
Underhill 6'1, 16st v PSDT, 6'7, 19st - 6 inches shorter, 3 stone lighter
Curry 6'1, 16st v Kolisi 6'2, 16.5st - similar height, 0.5 stone lighter
Morgan 6'3, 18st v Vermuelen 6'4, 18.5st - similar height, 0.5 stone lighter

*(or if they pick Mostert 6'6, 18st)

I know it's not all about the stats but a few inches and a few stone here and there can make all the difference, according to my ex-girlfriend anyway...

Why would people work with such a system. I could not even comprehend, had to use the google converter to make sense of what you were saying. Why not just use kg? The Americans were supposed to be the ones stuck with the imperial system.

Anycase dont forget our prop Thomas du Toit 136kg and 1.9 meters.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Why would people work with such a system. I could not even comprehend, had to use the google converter to make sense of what you were saying. Why not just use kg?

Because Imperial's ours, we invented it, we're perverse and like something a little more stimulating than just multiplying and dividing by 10.

But when you visit us, please do feel free to order 0.568261 of a litre in a pub.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I think some are getting a bit hung up on height and weight, Brian O'Driscoll was small for a centre towards the latter part of his career yet still was one of the best in the world. I do appreciate that you need balance to a pack, specifically the back row however if you pick a smaller team then you need to adjust your tactics accordingly.

 

[TRF_heineken]

@unrated ,
Agree that's very close to the likely side although I feel like Schreuder is the least likely 9 to start as he hasn't been in the system, something Rassie said heavily implied it will be van Zyl or Papier. I agree Esterhuizen deserves more of a shot but the few chances he has got he's blown unfortunately, hell of a talent who I rate highly however.

Lastly Thomas du Toit, while being a good talent has got nothing on Louw, Louw is better in just about every category (at least at tighthead, Thomas got monstered by Allister Vermaak this past weekend). Malherbe is a bit of a bum though, different story is we're talking about Coenie.

@TRF_heineken Sergreal would be a weird call for me, I like the guy but Nkosi has the caps.

All this is true yes. We are also forgetting that Vincent Koch is in the squad, and he played the last test against the AB's so he might even get a start since he's playing in England and more familiar with the turf.

Nkosi since returning from injury hasn't been as fiery as he was prior to injury, and yes he has 3 caps already, but that I still think Sergeal would be the better choice, especially if we are going for the kick-chase approach.

I think some are getting a bit hung up on height and weight, Brian O'Driscoll was small for a centre towards the latter part of his career yet still was one of the best in the world. I do appreciate that you need balance to a pack, specifically the back row however if you pick a smaller team then you need to adjust your tactics accordingly.

Indeed, we might have some big and heavy guys in our team, but we also have guys like Papier and Cheslin Kolbe who are a bit on the short side in both length and weight divisions.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think some are getting a bit hung up on height and weight, Brian O'Driscoll was small for a centre towards the latter part of his career yet still was one of the best in the world. I do appreciate that you need balance to a pack, specifically the back row however if you pick a smaller team then you need to adjust your tactics accordingly.

This,

Plus we're not contemplating playing SMALL guys, we're contemplating playing smaller than the opposition guys.
These forwards are still big guys who hit like a truck, it's not like they're 12st

 

[SomeOke]

Sergeal really impressed me this Currie Cup and he's always had a nose for the try-line and a crazy high work ethic. I'd be perfectly happy with him starting but somehow Nkosi feels like the more solid option, both in size and physicality as well as temperament, maybe I'm nuts though as he's 22, and one of the youngest players in the team. Back three will be interesting whoever we select, I'd love them to get some ball this weekend.

Weather looks good at least?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Just as Wade left Union for NFL complaining that he always felt his lack of size held him back playing the 15 man game.

 

[Oliver Madden]

Well, my hope is that we can pick up where we left during the RC. But with that said, under Rassie, we've only won 1 game away from home, so here's hoping we can improve that stat.

I think what does help a lot is that we don't have that many injuries and are able to pick a nearly full strength team that finished the RC. BUT, we are missing 2 players who was extremely influential in those games, and that is Faf de Klerk and Willie le Roux. And that leaves us with 2 positions that is extremely vital in beating opposition.

My guess is that Embrose Papier will take Faf's spot and Damian Willemse will take Willie's spot. so 2 rookies that oozes pace and excitement for 2 experienced cool heads. And this could work against us.

If England is going to use the high ball tactic, it might be a long day at the office for us, but then again, Willemse is pretty decent under the high ball, and can step pretty much on a dime...

to be fair you're on away win was against the AB's so if you can beat them in their own back-yard you'll surely have the belief that you can beat anyone.

 

[Which Tyler]

Because Imperial's ours, we invented it, we're perverse and like something a little more stimulating than just multiplying and dividing by 10.

But when you visit us, please do feel free to order 0.568261 of a litre in a pub.

More specifically, it was developed in the Forest of Dean - they counted fingers, and decided that 12 was the obvious base point for maths and measures...

 

[TRF_heineken]

to be fair you're on away win was against the AB's so if you can beat them in their own back-yard you'll surely have the belief that you can beat anyone.

Well, I hope Rassie uses sort of the same speech he used for that test, as last year we were smashed in NZ, and got the win this time, and we also got smashed at Twickers...

 

[SomeOke]

Unfortunately this is just such a young team; tactics, cohesion, and in most cases actual youth of the players, anything can happen, we're far from being able to put up a bunch of cohesive performances in a row.
Yes the team that beat the ABs can beat any team in the world but that team might not show up again for a while, especially without Willie and Faf, let's just look at the age of our backs:

9. Embrose Papier - 21
10. Handre Pollard - 24
11. Sbu Knosi - 22
12. DDA - 26 (our resident "veteran")
13. Jesse Kriel - 24
14. Aphiwe Dyantyi - 23
15. Damian Willemse - 20

They really are babies, anything can happen here, we could lose by 20 easily if we have a bad day. I think if the English just play organised rugby and get their kicking game right, put our youngsters under pressure, we are going to struggle!

 

[unrated]

But when you visit us, please do feel free to order 0.568261 of a litre in a pub.

but to be fair i would ask "What have you got on tap?" I will make my choice of brand and if presented with the option i would indicate 500 ml over 300ml.

 

[TRF_heineken]

View attachment 6898
but to be fair i would ask "What have you got on tap?" I will make my choice of brand and if presented with the option i would indicate 500 ml over 300ml.

You know they drink their beer warm...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You know they drink their beer warm...

...and flat.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

You know they drink their beer warm...

Cask ale is the way to go (12-14 degrees c, which is considered cool and not "warm") - it's the red wine of beer and you don't serve red wine cold.
But hey we are going way off topic here.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Why would people work with such a system. I could not even comprehend, had to use the google converter to make sense of what you were saying. Why not just use kg? The Americans were supposed to be the ones stuck with the imperial system.

Anycase dont forget our prop Thomas du Toit 136kg and 1.9 meters.

https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/meters-and-yards.42232/#post-916684

See for full details regarding measurements.

 

[Nudger]

As I want Mercer to start with curry u20 reunion I'm going for maro at 6
Lawes and kruis moon ? He normally starts at chiefs Hartley's and sinckler
Care Farrell
Teo is the only 12 in the squad although I would go with loz if he was available slade
May Daley brown
Hepburn George ana?
Wilson Rhodes
Youngs Ford manu

 

[Which Tyler]

Well, as long as we see a backrow of Shields, Rhodes, Morgan
Alongside inside backs of Youngs Farell Te'o Tuilagi
Then I fail to see how we could possibly lose

 

[ncurd]

Wings and Fullback might object to that lineup.....might wonder why they'd bother turning up