[2018 November Tests] England vs Australia (24/11/18)

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TRF_heineken, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. Fuzzy Dunlop

    Fuzzy Dunlop Academy Player

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    Well first of all that's simply wrong. If you'd watched Tigers all season you'd know the best stuff came earlier in the season with Ford at 10 and To'omua at 12. The 3 matches To'omua started stand out so much because they followed a horrendous winter for Tigers. Besides, the improvement (or dead cat bounce...) was more attributable to Tigers, for a laugh, deciding to actually bring in a forwards coach.

    Secondly, even if it was right, wtf would it prove? Tigers looking better with To'omua at 10 would only show that he's better than Ford, it would have nothing to do with Ford vs Farrell, Ford vs Cipriani or quite literally anyone but Ford vs To'omua.
     
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  3. Clavis Ruo

    Clavis Ruo Academy Player

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    ok. Wasn't sure. It read as though you don't get or understand how England could get 3 tries with Farrell as flyhalf
     
  4. Clavis Ruo

    Clavis Ruo Academy Player

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    ok. Wasn't sure. It read as though you don't get or understand how England could get 3 tries with Farrell as flyhalf
    I think Ford and Cipriani are more traditional 10s but they're weaker defensively. Farrell doesn't have really have flaws, in Jones' eyes. He can pass, tackle, kick and seems to be Wilkinson-like in his obsessiveness. And with him in the side, he can bring in more strike runners or gainline busters. Ford and Cipriani at 10 is like wasting a position.
     
  5. Which Tyler

    Which Tyler First XV

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    And lots of people disagree.
    I'm not really up for going into my thoughts and reasonings right now (I've done it 100 times, and am frankly bored of going round in circles), just pointing out that it's not an unknown, surprising, or unjustified position.
    It is regularly discussed across a number of platforms, with well reasoned arguments on both sides and plenty of middle ground.
    My comment was more about your surprise that there might be so some out there that doesn't think Farrell is one of the very best in the world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  6. The Alpha Bro

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    I think Farrell has earned his spot at 10 this Autumn. I really like him at 12 but with Cipriani as good as gone from the equation I don't think you have another 10 who will worry good teams.

    Obviously this means I don't rate Ford as a top class international, I never have, it's like playing with 14.5 players when you have him on the pitch. Any well organised team will be able to make yards off him in attack and they'll be able to ignore him in defence because he's not quick or strong enough to make a dominant hit or make a line break in traffic.

    Farrell's defence leaves a lot to be desired and his skills, for the most part, aren't on the level of Ford but he can run the ball and isn't a guy you can send players running at directly for guaranteed yards.

    If Jones commits to Farrell at 10 then your centres are the problem. Te'o and Manu won't work, it won't win a 6n, it won't win a World Cup, Te'o and Slade is probably serviceable in an otherwise hot team but a 2nd 5/8th with Manu should be what you're looking for. I'd try Lozowski a bit between Farrell and Manu in the 6n, I don't know if Loz is good enough but it's definitely worth a shot and looks seriously dangerous.
     
  7. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Whether or not Ford or Farrell is better at 10 it's pretty undeniable that Farrell is far better at 12 than Te'o, meaning there's an opening at flyhalf.
     
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  8. Clavis Ruo

    Clavis Ruo Academy Player

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    Sure, I understand. I'm not a Farrell advocate. Just saying why I think he has got the nod by Eddie. I just think that he doesn't think Ford and Cipriani are reliable. And their strengths are not strong enough to justify inclusion. Farrell is to him the best package.
     
  9. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

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    I think longer term, short of new talent suddenly rising, Farrel-Loz as the 10-12 pairing could be strong. Both are hard hitting tacklers with a rounded game and I'd say Loz has a better running game than Farrell.

    Ideally we want to find a big hitting 12 with a decent all round game and then we'd have the choice of a big 12 with any number of our smaller 13's or a smaller distributing 12 with Tuilagi at 13. It's a shame Devoto never really developed into the player we hoped he could be as he would have ticked that box.
     
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  10. TommiG88

    TommiG88 First XV

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    Just caught the game.

    England looked good, although Australia were poor.

    It’s a possibility that Aus won’t get through their group come the World Cup.

    Back to England; our pack finally looks balanced. I would really move Shields out when Billy comes back. Lawes and Itoje work really well together.

    The only issues are with scrum half and inside centre. I’ve said it already, but I think Williams at Newcastle is a credible option.

    Cokanasiga is an incredible player and he’s playing himself into the 6N team. Would be interested where Watson will be slotted in. I have a feeling he may be moved to Full Back, with Daly taking the 23 shirt.
     
  11. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    It wasn’t ever meant as a direct comparison more an observation that Ford can not be that great when a team performs better in his absence are you denying he has been far off his best the last few seasons? not saying he hasn’t had the odd performance but as an average, the season he arrives at Tigers is the first season for how long they fail to make top four, I realise they have scraped it before that but still, a player struggling domestically be it fault of his own or simply team/system error hardly inspires confidence at test level does it?
     
  12. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    Interesting points it’s nice to have a crash ball option or two or a play maker option having both in the locker really keeps oppersition guessing and makes it hard to build a combative defence around.
     
  13. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Williams....very good but young and inexperienced, post world cup deffinatly needs a shot. And could be great but pre RWC its too soon IMO as he'd only have the 6N to get to the level.
     
  14. Fuzzy Dunlop

    Fuzzy Dunlop Academy Player

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    But you are absolutely are using a limited and flawed comparison of Tigers with and without Ford to support your argument about Ford's England credentials. It's the first thing you mention in your post to back up your claim that he's not England's best 10 and it's also not the first time you've tried to use that argument - I remember you saying the same thing a couple of times during the 6 Nations. Again, even if you were right, all it would prove is that for 3 games (twice against teams missing a raft of international players and once against Worcester) To'omua was better than Ford. Why you think that's a good enough argument to make multiple times is beyond me tbh.

    Yes I am denying it because this season (post-MOC) he has absolutely been back to his best. Before the international break he was arguably the in form English 10 (all 3 looked good tbh) despite not having an armchair ride.

    Years of instability with the constant sacking of coaches, no forwards coach for over half the season, continued increase in the money spent on backs at the expense of the pack and MOC being allowed complete control over all aspects of play I'd say had much more to do with the failure to make the top 4 than Ford replacing Burns. But what do I know, I just actually watch them.

    Anyway we're straying dangerously close to being off-topic now. For me our best bet is 10. Ford, 12. Farrell 13. Tuilagi but I'm perfectly happy with Faz at 10 with Lozowski and Tuilagi alternating at 12 and 13. I understand why someone might be reluctant to bet on Manu being fit but he's had a decent record this calendar year, especially for a crash-ball centre.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 25, 2018
  15. ragerancher

    ragerancher First XV

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    The thing is if you are old enough if you are ready. A lot of the players who have rejuvenated England are all young an relatively inexperienced. I believe in having an experienced core but not if doing so means keeping poorly performing players in just because the number of caps they have is larger. Really Jones should have been doing all of this testing and experimenting after the tour of Australia but that's the past and can't be changed. Look at it like this, would he really perform any worse than Teo and is he likely to offer more? I'd rather we have a less experienced midfield than one that really isn't offering very much. Give him a go and see how he fares as a sub in the 6N. Look at how few games it took for Itoje to become a starter, or even Cokanasiga now. Underhill and Curry too. You really don't need that many games to see if someone is at a stage where they are ready to step up.
     
  16. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    You can pretty much find a flaw in what ever argument is put forward, we will always see different things in different players, one thing we can agree on is a fit Taulagi is one hell of a prospect, hopefully he stays fit he getting better and better every time I see him.
     
  17. Jackspat

    Jackspat Academy Player

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    He's actually not even okay, he's a liability and shouldn't be in the squad. If you watch him throughout the match what does he actually do? He can't run, he can't pivot, he can't jink or step he's not even that fast. He's strong and fearless and passionate and no one can doubt his dedication.. And he's probably the best kicker of penalties and conversions in the world. However he's hot headed, eco-centric, tends towards thoughtless red mist and worst of all, at the positions he plays in nobody outside him gets a look in because he kicks the ball away all the time.
    Stick with this guy and there will be no progress.
     
  18. Tigs Man

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    Ford isn't even struggling domestically, he's been in like 3/4 teams of the week in the prem, tops the stats as a 10 in pretty much every attacking column, saying he is sturggling at domestic level is pretty laughable really.

    It is clear he struggled under MOC though, and Murphy gave him more leadership and freedom to take charge and it has worked in attack, just a shame our defensive system and forwards have let it down.
     
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  19. Clavis Ruo

    Clavis Ruo Academy Player

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    Hmm, seems like England have been improving with him in the team, and even more since it became clear he will be the No 10. He does make tries,such as the one for Daly yesterday, doesn't he? To say he should not even be in the squad may be a bit much I think.
     
  20. Tigs Man

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    One try in 3 games is hardly a strong indictment.
     
  21. Jimbo

    Jimbo Academy Player

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    Is this one try based on involvement or scoring the try itself?
     
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