[2018 November Tests] England vs Australia (24/11/18)

[Paulo]

Wow much arrogant
So English
Bribe ref
Wow

Seems a bit much doesn't it. If this and If that, it sounds like some (not all) Kiwi fans after a loss. Deny deny deny.

Maintaining the intensity they showed against New Zealand is the issue. If they play like every game, then they are world beaters. But one game is just one game. South Africa beat New Zealand too at home too I might add, but everyone seems to forget that.

What separates New Zealand and Ireland from the rest is consistency. You would expect every game between the two to be a real tough game for both sides. But against England, you could get a real challenge, or be hit in the face with a wet lettuce leaf. Yes, Ireland and New Zealand May drops game here or there but they are to outliers, but the general rule.

With the state of the Wallabies, England must surely fancy their chances for a big win. But with the Aussies in the Indigenous Jersey, they will have huge motivation to keep their 100%win record with it... albeit it's just 1/1.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Seems a bit much doesn't it. If this and If that, it sounds like some (not all) Kiwi fans after a loss. Deny deny deny.

Maintaining the intensity they showed against New Zealand is the issue. If they play like every game, then they are world beaters. But one game is just one game. South Africa beat New Zealand too at home too I might add, but everyone seems to forget that.

What separates New Zealand and Ireland from the rest is consistency. You would expect every game between the two to be a real tough game for both sides. But against England, you could get a real challenge, or be hit in the face with a wet lettuce leaf. Yes, Ireland and New Zealand May drops game here or there but they are to outliers, but the general rule.

With the state of the Wallabies, England must surely fancy their chances for a big win. But with the Aussies in the Indigenous Jersey, they will have huge motivation to keep their 100%win record with it... albeit it's just 1/1.

He was replying to an equally exaggerated post to be fair but yeah, it very much reads "if all the problems we had in our set up weren't problems we'd be world beaters".

The only thing I'd actually disagree with is saying Ireland or NZ wouldn't be confident beating England, I think they're confident they'd beat anyone.

 

[spartan32]

Ok so my patriotic fandom may have run away with its self a little. But let's not forget England went unbeaten for 18 games in a row, only matched by NZ. In that time we beat Ireland twice I believe.

In the 6 nations we beat Ireland 2014 and 2016. When we lost to them in 2015 they were at home and in that tournament managed to draw with Wales who we beat that year. It is aa fact that Ireland will always bring their very best game when they play us, even if they've had shockers before. Yes they have been on an upward curve over the last 18 months or so, and that has coincided with a downward swing for us, but it looks like we have stemmed the bleeding (if we can turn the Aussies over tomorrow) and may be on the way back up.

Are we currently on par with Ireland? No. Have we got the players and strength of depth that could lead us to be? Definetly.

What annoys me about England is not the losing, it's when they lose and don't seem to have given it all from 1 to 23. By all rites we should be a threat to any team. No one can deny some of the talent we have on offer. We just need to convert it, and that's down to the coaching staff.

But I'll guess we shall see tomorrow, and in the 2019 6 nations. There's a great deal of potential and I've got hope, even if it is misguided.

 

[Pom in Exile]

I agree,

And that says a lot considering they've both been poor

Sinckler's been alright but Williams has been no better than Cole imo.

 

[Paulo]

He was replying to an equally exaggerated post to be fair but yeah, it very much reads "if all the problems we had in our set up weren't problems we'd be world beaters".

The only thing I'd actually disagree with is saying Ireland or NZ wouldn't be confident beating England, I think they're confident they'd beat anyone.

I was agreeing with rage about the first exaggerated post, so yea, we are all on the same page in that one. And yea, I would say NZ and Ire would be confident against Eng, but if Eng got up, it wouldn't be as unheard of as say an Italy or some other team outside the top 5-6. Realistically, the gap between that top group isn't huge, NZ and Ire are part of the pack, at the top of the pile, but not that far ahead of the rest... and this from a Kiwi fan who bleeds Black. The would be confident of the win, but would need to be prepared and not have an 'off' day.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Maintaining the intensity they showed against New Zealand is the issue. If they play like every game, then they are world beaters.

Scarcely. NZ were poor by their standards, at the end of their season, thousands of miles from home, were 3 scores down and yet we still couldn't win. Plucky effort, but the ABs really were there for the taking and a good side would have sealed the deal.

Intensity is a bare minimum and we've been pretty patchy at that. We should always be reasonably competitive, but we're nowhere near thinking we could get an even record against Ire or NZ let alone being able to beat them more often than not. And those 2 have models geared towards the national teams to help.

 

[Pom in Exile]

I was agreeing with rage about the first exaggerated post, so yea, we are all on the same page in that one. And yea, I would say NZ and Ire would be confident against Eng, but if Eng got up, it wouldn't be as unheard of as say an Italy or some other team outside the top 5-6. Realistically, the gap between that top group isn't huge, NZ and Ire are part of the pack, at the top of the pile, but not that far ahead of the rest... and this from a Kiwi fan who bleeds Black. The would be confident of the win, but would need to be prepared and not have an 'off' day.

'...but if England got up, it wouldn't be as unheard of as say an Italy or some other team outside the top 5-6.'
Grrrh, I can't tell you how much that line ****** me off, it's literally dripping with arrogance and of course England beating NZ wouldn't be as much of a surprise as if Italy did, England should have beaten you a couple of weeks ago and I'd be confident that next time they will...all of those close wins stacked up by NZ can very quickly turn into close losses as England very well know.
Arrogant English? **** me, we've literally got nothing on the 'humble kiwi'.

 

[Paulo]

Scarcely. NZ were poor by their standards, at the end of their season, thousands of miles from home, were 3 scores down and yet we still couldn't win. Plucky effort, but the ABs really were there for the taking and a good side would have sealed the deal.

'...but if England got up, it wouldn't be as unheard of as say an Italy or some other team outside the top 5-6.'
Grrrh, I can't tell you how much that line ****** me off, it's literally dripping with arrogance and of course England beating NZ wouldn't be as much of a surprise as if Italy did, England should have beaten you a couple of weeks ago and I'd be confident that next time they will...

So, I said England could be world beaters, and it wouldn't be an much of an upset for them to beat New Zealand (or Ireland). They are ranked 4th in the world, so beating 1 and 2 is reasonable.

One of you says I give them too much credit, the other says I didn't give them enough. Figure it out guys. I said England could be world beaters, but they need consistency, play like they did against the All Blacks and they can beat any body. The All Blacks we're lucky to get away with that one, and a few other games this season too to be honest. We are part of the pack now, but still at the top with Ireland, as per world rankings. I don't claim to be humble or arrogant, I try to be a realist.

 

[Pom in Exile]

So, I said England could be world beaters, and it wouldn't be an much of an upset for them to beat New Zealand (or Ireland). They are ranked 4th in the world, so beating 1 and 2 is reasonable.

One of you says I give them too much credit, the other says I didn't give them enough. Figure it out guys. I said England could be world beaters, but they need consistency, play like they did against the All Blacks and they can beat any body. The All Blacks we're lucky to get away with that one, and a few other games this season too to be honest. We are part of the pack now, but still at the top with Ireland, as per world rankings. I don't claim to be humble or arrogant, I try to be a realist.

'Figure it out guys.'
Figure what out? A consensus? A party line?
Two seperate individuals, independent of thought.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say form can change quickly. From 2012-2015 people mostly talked about the 6N as being Wales vs Ireland, despite the fact we came 2nd in all those years. 2016 they said the Wales-Ireland game would decide who would win and then England won. Now Ireland have got back on top, England have had a dip in form and we are back to a lot of people saying the tournament is Wales-Ireland again whilst ignoring the statistically most consistent team in the tournament. Last year was an outlier but one we have experienced far less than Wales or Ireland. I'd say England are capable of consistency, our problem is that when we switch off, we completely switch off and absolutely throw the game. When NZ or Ireland switch off they suffer a close defeat but when we do, we get humiliated. See 2013 6N, 2 world cup games and numerous times in the 6N where individual lapses in concentration would end up costing us the entire tournament.

2016 looked like we had finally cracked it and got the winning mentality. Like the ABs were would fight right to the last second. It seems Jones squandered that. Rather than using that momentum to slowly introduce players into a winning team, he instead flogged them until they stopped winning and then started chopping and changing like crazy in a team that was now losing. The way he has gone about managing the players since he took over comes across as ultra conservative followed by panic reactionary. Without injuries I believe he would have taken the squad he started with and flogged them for the whole 4 years right into the world cup. We need a coach who can instil that same mentality but without breaking the team by refusing to change out overworked players.

 

[Paulo]

'Figure it out guys.'
Figure what out? A consensus? A party line?
Two seperate individuals, independent of thought.

I think you're a bit too easily offended bro. That line was meant light heartedly after I called out for giving Eng too much credit and not enough credit.

Yes, the Internet forums are made of individuals with independent thought and ideas. I wouldn't get myself too worked up about anything I say. I'm a nobody Kiwi living in Australia.

 

[Pom in Exile]

I think you're a bit too easily offended bro. That line was meant light heartedly after I called out for giving Eng too much credit and not enough credit.

Yes, the Internet forums are made of individuals with independent thought and ideas. I wouldn't get myself too worked up about anything I say. I'm a nobody Kiwi living in Australia.

Fair enough fella, but do me a favour...stop being all humble.

 

[Derpus]

They really are a shambles. Its a massive shame

Meh reaping what we sowed. Blew all our RWC 03 cash on rubbish, didn't invest in the roots and now the game collapses and we act surprised.

 

[Clavis Ruo]

Just saw this on Twitter:

View attachment 6974

https://twitter.com/tomdecent/status/1065968592607428608

Probably no coincidence that the Wallabies' decline in standards began with Beale, AAC and James O'Connor (and maybe Drew Mitchell) - a bunch of mildly talented but over-rated players whose performances never quite justified the hype surrounding them.

Bringing back AAC was a mistake - all it did was probably cause resentment in the ranks. This was, after all, not someone who could add real leadership and quality to the team. Don't know how he won a bagful of caps.

Women in the room until 10.30 may not seem like a big deal but I remember that past Wallabies teams made a huge deal about someone wearing a wrong shirt or not putting on the jacket at breakfast or tough protocol things like that. Yet those teams won more than they lost.

 

[Clavis Ruo]

More details on Beale and AAC. Not exactly a hanging offence. Some people need to take themselves a little less seriously.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....stralia-stars-kurtley-beale-adam-15457074.amp

I remember previous Wallabies, in the days when they had the beating of everyone, were very strict on protocol. Players were sanctioned for not wearing the jacket at breakfast, or wearing the wrong T-shirt etc. May seem like an overreaction, but this was in line with a zero-tolerance policy that works in some situations.
And those teams - the early Bob Dwyer teams and the Rod Macqueen ones - won more often than not.
It's also a bit like Ben Ryan's motto with the teams he coaches, especially his gold-medal Fiji team, that "the standard you walk past is the standard you become".

 

[Paulo]

Fair enough fella, but do me a favour...stop being all humble.

It's all good. At the end of the day, we are all just different clans in the same tribe. Loving our game right now.

 

[Derpus]

Probably no coincidence that the Wallabies' decline in standards began with Beale, AAC and James O'Connor (and maybe Drew Mitchell) - a bunch of mildly talented but over-rated players whose performances never quite justified the hype surrounding them.

Bringing back AAC was a mistake - all it did was probably cause resentment in the ranks. This was, after all, not someone who could add real leadership and quality to the team. Don't know how he won a bagful of caps.

Women in the room until 10.30 may not seem like a big deal but I remember that past Wallabies teams made a huge deal about someone wearing a wrong shirt or not putting on the jacket at breakfast or tough protocol things like that. Yet those teams won more than they lost.

Beale has always been hit and miss for the Wallabies, no argument there. O'Connor should have been one of the greatest ever but didn't have the mentality. Very dissapointing.

AAC was great for ages and extremely reliable. Even in his one match against Italy he was nearly the best on the park with two try assists. Drew Mitchell was great until Higginbotham broke his leg, and he struggled to find form after that. He was great in the last RWC though.

So, yeah. O'Connor hasnt been involved in the team for years and Beale has been in and out. I find it amusing that you try to blame the overall drop in form on these outside backs, when it's the basics like the lineout where we really get found out.

Maybe blaming one or two players makes it easier for you to swallow just how terrible we have become.

 

[Clavis Ruo]

Beale has always been hit and miss for the Wallabies, no argument there. O'Connor should have been one of the greatest ever but didn't have the mentality. Very dissapointing.

AAC was great for ages and extremely reliable. Even in his one match against Italy he was nearly the best on the park with two try assists. Drew Mitchell was great until Higginbotham broke his leg, and he struggled to find form after that. He was great in the last RWC though.

So, yeah. O'Connor hasnt been involved in the team for years and Beale has been in and out. I find it amusing that you try to blame the overall drop in form on these outside backs, when it's the basics like the lineout where we really get found out.

Maybe blaming one or two players makes it easier for you to swallow just how terrible we have become.

It's not backs or forwards thing. Just so happens that reliance on this bunch coincided with the start of a fallow period for Australian rugby. I reckon there just aren't as much brains in the team as there used to be. Intelligence used to be Australian rugby's strongest point.
I don't agree that AAC was ever great. At his best, he was a pure journeyman. Amazing that he got as many caps as he did. Standards must have dropped so low for that to have happened.

 

[spartan32]

You know people form various teams have been lamenting the drop in form of their lads in recent past. SA, England, Aussies. Heads are in hands, and all that has been done well in the past is forgotten. But isn't that the nature of rugby? (The ABs are anomaly in this but let's not get into why that may be). Sometimes your teams up on top, wth the perfect coach and squad, moral and belief are through the roof and all in your path fall at your feet eg Ireland right now. The next day the coach has quit, your best players retire or get injured, and everything changes. If I remember correctly Ireland stuttered somewhat when O'Connell and BOD called it a day.

Isn't this what makes the game exciting and interesting? That each year you can never be sure how the teams are going to perform,
Who's going to grab the momentum and run with it. Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Unless you're an AB fan. And that must be so dull.

I imagine the Aussies will quickly follow SA to get back to form. Change a couple of players, grab a new coach, blood some young up and comers, etc.

Hope for a good game today. Finish of the AIs in a feast of champagne rugby from both sides, of course with a England win.

 

[Derpus]

It's not backs or forwards thing. Just so happens that reliance on this bunch coincided with the start of a fallow period for Australian rugby. I reckon there just aren't as much brains in the team as there used to be. Intelligence used to be Australian rugby's strongest point.
I don't agree that AAC was ever great. At his best, he was a pure journeyman. Amazing that he got as many caps as he did. Standards must have dropped so low for that to have happened.

Yep, centurian, ***le winner and world cup finalist. Absolutely stealing a living.