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[2018 November Tests] England vs New Zealand 10/11/18

ragerancher

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Jones has his antipodean infatuation. The further away you were born for England, the more likely you are to make the squad.
 

The_Blindside

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Yep hoping for Underhill at 7 for TC. Wilson to to remain at 8 and Shields at 6. I was impressed with Mercer’s footwork, but see him more as a sub to come on when the game is more broken up.

I didn’t think Shields had that bad a game v SA. Ok yeah there was that dumb attempt at trying to throw an over the head no look pass when he was 10m from the line, but other than I thought his line speed was good, he hit rucks, tackled (although a little high) and gave us another line out option.

If Shields has stinker v the ABs he’ll get slaughtered by England fans on here because I get the feeling that he was expected hit the ground running. But also because he’s playing the country of his birth.

I also get a sense of an undercurrent of suspicion on this board because he’s a Kiwi who has jumped the queue ahead of English born and bred, like Underhill, straight into the team. The whole Rusedski/Lennox Lewis phenomena of not being born and bred here, but who have a lot more to prove to win over doubters. He’s pretty much had what 4 months in English Rugby - I for one am willing to give a chance to prove himself. But agree he has a lot to prove his doubters wrong.
 

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Looking forward to this more than the Ireland game really.

I don't think England have a win in them unless the performance is something we've never seen before but I think they could hold NZ pretty close and beat them up a wee bit. NZ will score 3-6 tries, if it's 3 England have an outside chance, 4 will be respectable but any more and you'll be watching through your fingers.

Try make Barrett look a bit **** for your good friend and neighbor Johnny "sex God" Sexton.

Beat them up maybe but they've got Brodie playing so i don't even think we'll gain parity with them now by dragging them into an arm wrestle. Just hoping they have an off day and we can wind Aaron Smith up a bit.
 

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English born and bred, like Underhill.

Bred anyway. Born Dayton, Ohio.

I’m one who’s unconvinced by Shields. As well as the daft pass I seem to remember one tackle where it took him around 15 metres to get his man. Quiet in SA too in the summer. So far he doesn’t seem to be a massive upgrade, if an upgrade at all, on what we’ve produced domestically.

He’s been fast tracked and had we not had the injuries at 8 he’d almost certainly have started last week, based purely on reputation, ahead of the MoM Wilson who is English born and bred and been playing in the GP for the best part of a decade. He’s eligible so I want him to succeed, but if he doesn’t provide that bit extra his selection gives the wrong message to our young players.
 

living sacrifice

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It’s frustrating watch Wilson perform for so long and work so hard to get into the 15 to see Sheilds not perform, then end up in the starting 15 only to play quite poorly I thought.
He tackled too high and didn’t really offer a carrying threat (although what forward did).

On the subject of Slade, I wonder if T’eo being terrible had an effect in Slades performance. T’eo looked off pace and out of position loads and I do think that had an impact on Slades missed tackles etc. Not sure how much of an impact though.
 

ragerancher

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It’s frustrating watch Wilson perform for so long and work so hard to get into the 15 to see Sheilds not perform, then end up in the starting 15 only to play quite poorly I thought.
He tackled too high and didn’t really offer a carrying threat (although what forward did).

On the subject of Slade, I wonder if T’eo being terrible had an effect in Slades performance. T’eo looked off pace and out of position loads and I do think that had an impact on Slades missed tackles etc. Not sure how much of an impact though.

This. Compare, Shields comes in with no game experience in the UK and goes straight into the England squad. Isn't noticeably better. Wilson performs for years, does well off the bench of England and first start wins MOTM and yet there are still questions as to who the first choice 6 out of those 2 would be?
 

Mrs. Peter Quinn

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Whilst shields hasn't blown me away either, he 100% needs more time. I think he had a pretty good game against SA. At 11/0 he was one of few forwards to not miss a tackle and carried the 2nd most metres in the pack. He can do better though and warrants more time. Thing is, rightly or wrongly his selection happened and now that he's picked he should get the same treatment as everyone else who gets picked, and that means not dropping him after a few appearances just because he hasn't been tearing it up. After all, he's come into a side who're basically playing pretty poorly, and is expected to stand out above others, all whilst having played only a handful of games in the northern hemisphere. Tough brief, no?
 

Reiser99

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Whilst shields hasn't blown me away either, he 100% needs more time. I think he had a pretty good game against SA. At 11/0 he was one of few forwards to not miss a tackle and carried the 2nd most metres in the pack. He can do better though and warrants more time. Thing is, rightly or wrongly his selection happened and now that he's picked he should get the same treatment as everyone else who gets picked, and that means not dropping him after a few appearances just because he hasn't been tearing it up. After all, he's come into a side who're basically playing pretty poorly, and is expected to stand out above others, all whilst having played only a handful of games in the northern hemisphere. Tough brief, no?

Yeah making 11 tackles is great, but not if the attacker gets over the gainline on every single tackle. I imagine I'm exaggerating, but I felt far too many of his tackles gave ground and produced quick ball for the Springboks. If they had put some of those chances away this whole discussion would be different. I can't see NZ passing up those opportunities or failing to score with quick ball after breaking the gainline repeatedly.
 

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I respect Farrell coz he is a proud, staunch Englishmen. He doesnt seem to crumble under pressure whenever we play them and he's always involved somewhere. England need players of this mindset, he doesnt take no **** and gives it his all.
 

kesh

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Didn't Slade miss 50% of tackles?

He's just not up to international rugby sadly and we need to stop playing him. Don't punish Daly being played out of position.
Rushing out of line is counted as missed tackles and nah(similar to Farrell), i'm not buying this "playing outta position" crap neither, no one seems to know his position apart from Garlan, plus Ashton will be full back next test, Daly wing for Noel.

[edit] just raging about his overlap miss
 

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I respect Farrell coz he is a proud, staunch Englishmen. He doesnt seem to crumble under pressure whenever we play them and he's always involved somewhere. England need players of this mindset, he doesnt take no **** and gives it his all.
I use to think of Farrell as a wannabe tough guy when we played England years ago. Now, I agree with your post above. He seems to have chilled out a bit with the trouble making but we don't want to get into a penalty kicking contest with the guy. Especially with 50% goal kicking average Beuaden Barrett.
 

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Beat them up maybe but they've got Brodie playing so i don't even think we'll gain parity with them now by dragging them into an arm wrestle. Just hoping they have an off day and we can wind Aaron Smith up a bit.

Their only obvious weakness is Barrett's kicking, they're unfairly good at everything else. They don't ooze invincibility in the same way that the team from four years ago did though. They can get a bit rattled if you get at them maybe, but the more times it happens the more comfortable they get in tight situations. I'm clutching at straws a bit now though, they're an awesome team and if the opposition give then a chance to play they'll get humiliated.

They're a banker for 3 tries in almost every game so England's attack will need to be much better than it's been for some time. I'm finding it hard to imagine England winning but it might be close of they play it well. They'll need Daly for his kicking if nothing else.
 

ragerancher

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As a matter of interest, when was the last time NZ were kept tryless?
 

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I'm not sure, but I'd guess the second Lions test last year.
 

Old Hooker

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Yeah making 11 tackles is great, but not if the attacker gets over the gainline on every single tackle. I imagine I'm exaggerating, but I felt far too many of his tackles gave ground and produced quick ball for the Springboks. If they had put some of those chances away this whole discussion would be different. I can't see NZ passing up those opportunities or failing to score with quick ball after breaking the gainline repeatedly.
Yeah, I don’t recall him stopping too many in their tracks.

He was on the field for 76 minutes. 11 tackles in that time for a flanker is pretty ordinary especially as we were defending for the whole first half. Robshaw has many critics but we’d usually expect him to make half as many again. Itoje was 15/0, Kruis 11/1, Sinckler 10/1 and, in less than a half when we were defending less, Mercer was 10/1.
 

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Having watched Shields week in and week out in New Zealand you have to be realistic about him. He is a guy that works brilliantly in worker packs. He is not a dynamic forward and has no real speed over the field but he does get dirty, rolls his sleeves up and keeps you 100% in the fight. So he was never going to make the All Blacks based on his athletic capability but his heart is huge and in an England pack he wont get worse only better and he will make players around him better to. England forwards hit the line more direct, where Kiwi forwards will use more footwork at the line to create imbalances. Shields does this and that brings a lot of value to forward play by having that. It is more your players getting used to playing with him, he will develop into a very solid player for you. The return on investment in Shields will be more evident during the world cup.

On to the game, I expect England to rise to the occasion, I expect a close game and one where England will push the rules with offsides to the maximum, this will be a disruptive game that does not flow much at all due to England not wanting to allow the All Blacks to breath. All Blacks will also be playing with game plan B/C, they won't reveal much heading into the world cup that can be copied or planned for. That means they could drop a game here or against Ireland. Could go either way but I pick All Blacks. 28 - 24. If the All Blacks were to win by 14+ then forget the world cup now as All Blacks will be ready to go levels up again for the tournament next year.
 

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Englands pack were shite in the first half if you believe that moon made the difference in the second half then ok but I think shields Wilson Mercer made a big difference so that would be my starting back row
 

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Moon definitely made a difference as each scrum didn't end up as penalty to SA giving them territory and possession. Also Itjoe deciding to stop giving away a penalty every 5 minutes in the 2nd half helped too.
 
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