[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

[Leinster Fan]

Think it's POM/Holland. Used to be D.Ryan.

Thanks.

 

[smartcooky]

Ok, I have to disagree. We'll more than likely play SA in the QF and we should expect to beat them with a reasonably full strength side.

I agree, but I'll bet you thought that in 2015 with Argentina as well.

 

[big ginger 8]

I agree, but I'll bet you thought that in 2015 with Argentina as well.

Ok
That wasn't a reasonably full strength side though.

 

[Paulo]

Ok
That wasn't a reasonably full strength side though.

Fair enough. So all things being equal on current squads and fitness I would expect you to get over SA, but it would be bloody tough. They have the same abrasive style as you guys. You wouldn't get out of that unscathed. But, I think what most people are pointing out, 12 months is a looooong time away in Rugby months. Any number of injuries or fitness issues could happen. And if you want a largely first choice team, well good luck.

I still remember the 2011 WC where Carter hurt his groin in training and tournament over. We needed our 4th string 10 to come on. Beaver had been out fishing when he got the call up, as the legend goes.

The point being, you were great on saturday, at full strength, you can anyone a run for their money and legitimately believe you will get the W. But don't get too far ahead and beware of pride coming before a fall. From a long time AB fan, it is actually harder being on top as the expectation is always there and you are in everyone's crosshairs. Good luck.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ok
That wasn't a reasonably full strength side though.

The thing in this is next time we wont be at full strength either. The trick is being prepared. I think Schmidt failed miserably at the last RWC. And he knows it with selections and tactics. But the difference he has learnt now. That RWC has triggered him to leave no stone unturned. He sent Joey to us as Joey wanted to be a 10 and we could offer him to be key 10. It meant if Sextob goes down Joe has 2 serious options in Byrne and especially Joey who is playing as a starter in top european games. Same at 9. Murray goes down it's not end of world.

Schmidt learnt from last RWC that you need to build a large pool. And while it frustrated me at times he has built a squad of 40 who really are all capable.

 

[big ginger 8]

Fair enough. So all things being equal on current squads and fitness I would expect you to get over SA, but it would be bloody tough. They have the same abrasive style as you guys. You wouldn't get out of that unscathed. But, I think what most people are pointing out, 12 months is a looooong time away in Rugby months. Any number of injuries or fitness issues could happen. And if you want a largely first choice team, well good luck.

I still remember the 2011 WC where Carter hurt his groin in training and tournament over. We needed our 4th string 10 to come on. Beaver had been out fishing when he got the call up, as the legend goes.

The point being, you were great on saturday, at full strength, you can anyone a run for their money and legitimately believe you will get the W. But don't get too far ahead and beware of pride coming before a fall. From a long time AB fan, it is actually harder being on top as the expectation is always there and you are in everyone's crosshairs. Good luck.

Are we getting ahead of ourselves? Is anyone saying we're guaranteed to win? People are just very confident which as the number two ranked side in the world we're pretty entitled to be. We know twelve months is a long time but we're also allowed enjoy a good run and be confident in it being maintained for at least a while provided something catastrophic doesn't happen. We have the strongest depth we've ever had, we just beat New Zealand without Murray which would have been unthinkable not so long ago. Sure if we lose 5 starters of the highest quality in one week we'll be in a weaker position but it won't be as bad as 2015. We've improved which is really all we can ask for.

I feel like if it was England, South Africa or Australia in a similar position people wouldn't be saying this. It's almost as if since we were the underdog for so long and different sides to this one have failed we're not allowed to have some pride in our team. Also frankly it doesn't matter what I or any fan feel. We could think we'll be handed the world cup or that we won't have a single win. What we believe doesn't matter.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Are we getting ahead of ourselves? Is anyone saying we're guaranteed to win? People are just very confident which as the number two ranked side in the world we're pretty entitled to be. We know twelve months is a long time but we're also allowed enjoy a good run and be confident in it being maintained for at least a while provided something catastrophic doesn't happen. We have the strongest depth we've ever had, we just beat New Zealand without Murray which would have been unthinkable not so long ago. Sure if we lose 5 starters of the highest quality in one week we'll be in a weaker position but it won't be as bad as 2015. We've improved which is really all we can ask for.

I feel like if it was England, South Africa or Australia in a similar position people wouldn't be saying this. It's almost as if since we were the underdog for so long and different sides to this one have failed we're not allowed to have some pride in our team. Also frankly it doesn't matter what I or any fan feel. We could think we'll be handed the world cup or that we won't have a single win. What we believe doesn't matter.

this is what it like being on top, everyone wants to talk about how you're "not actually that much better" or how they're going to beat you, its what its been like being a an all blacks supporter for the last decade or so. Other than indisputable legends like Carter and McCaw more or less every AB's player has had comments like "not as good as everyone says they are"...Mccaw every just said was a cheat

get use to it

 

[Amiga500]

Are we getting ahead of ourselves?

Yes we are*.

We lean far too heavily on our forwards to dominate opponents for us to win.


Even if the AB forward unit doesn't get parity - like Saturday - their threat out the back means they can still win a game they've not really earned the right to.

We are far too blunt for that. We don't have a 12 who can act as a 2nd pivot with a range of passing/kicking and our full back doesn't carry the same running threat.

They are the best of what we have - but its not at NZ level yet. Not a criticism of the players - just a realistic observation of what they can and cannot do.


*in respect of the meeja making us out as this existential threat to NZ in Japan. We are on a good day if they aren't on their game. Obviously, not getting beyond a QF would be viewed as a disaster of 2007 proportions at this point in time.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The thing in this is next time we wont be at full strength either. The trick is being prepared. I think Schmidt failed miserably at the last RWC. And he knows it with selections and tactics. But the difference he has learnt now. That RWC has triggered him to leave no stone unturned. He sent Joey to us as Joey wanted to be a 10 and we could offer him to be key 10. It meant if Sextob goes down Joe has 2 serious options in Byrne and especially Joey who is playing as a starter in top european games. Same at 9. Murray goes down it's not end of world.

Schmidt learnt from last RWC that you need to build a large pool. And while it frustrated me at times he has built a squad of 40 who really are all capable.

Failed miserably is a ridiculous statement, he only had half a cycle to prepare for that RWC. He sent the most prepared team we have ever sent to an RWC and got ridiculously unlucky with injuries. There were a few oversights sure but that QF loss was mostly Joe losing a battle against time to build depth.

 

[munstermuffin]

Failed miserably is a ridiculous statement, he only had half a cycle to prepare for that RWC. He sent the most prepared team we have ever sent to an RWC and got ridiculously unlucky with injuries. There were a few oversights sure but that QF loss was mostly Joe losing a battle against time to build depth.

Yes it was a failure. No 2 ways about it. That Irish team was not picked right in my eyes. And had no depth developed. The Madigan situation being the biggest issue. Agreed Schmidt only had half a cycle and not enough time to develop depth. But as you said the greatest prepared team who achived no better than 2011 or other years gone past. Yes there was injuries but still a failure ultimately. Not 100% on Schmidt but he has learnt. Madigan situation being 1. He has made sure his back up is playing regularly at top level as a 10.
2015 cant be blamed on injuries. Every team will get that. Look at NZ in 2011. It's adapting to them that seperated the best from the rest.
But ultimately Ireland failed miserably on their targets at that RWC. Again not fully Schmidts fault. But as a whole they failed.
But as I said on Schmidt he learnt from it and what makes him good is he knows what to correct and has corrected it

 

[big ginger 8]

Yes we are*.

We lean far too heavily on our forwards to dominate opponents for us to win.


Even if the AB forward unit doesn't get parity - like Saturday - their threat out the back means they can still win a game they've not really earned the right to.

We are far too blunt for that. We don't have a 12 who can act as a 2nd pivot with a range of passing/kicking and our full back doesn't carry the same running threat.

They are the best of what we have - but its not at NZ level yet. Not a criticism of the players - just a realistic observation of what they can and cannot do.


*in respect of the meeja making us out as this existential threat to NZ in Japan. We are on a good day if they aren't on their game. Obviously, not getting beyond a QF would be viewed as a disaster of 2007 proportions at this point in time.

Think you're underselling our backs a little bit, sure they're not an all singing all dancing bunch but we had more linebreaks than NZ and our try came from a mixture of individual talent and excellent coaching.

In the 6N Irish backs were also the individual leaders in trys scored, clean breaks (Jacob Stockdale), defenders beaten (Robnoxious), most assists and most passes (Conor Murray). They're a very tough unit to break down and with Kearney on the pitch a very hard one to get in behind.

There's also the factor that our defence is consistently good so we may not need that try from anywhere. Including and since last years Autumn series only three teams have scored 20 or more points against us. One was Fiji against a weakened side the other two were Australia and Wales, we also won all these games.

I agree that if we fall behind by a good score I'm not entirely sure we have the side to get trys from nothing but I'm not sure how likely it is that we'll be in that position either.

And not getting beyond a quarter at this stage should not automatically be a 2007 esque disaster. If performance is like that then yes but if we come up against a SA or NZ side that are just about the better side one the day it's not a disaster. A huge disappointment yes but not a disaster.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I wouldn't be too hard on Schmidt re 2015, just remember 2007 was Henry's first RWC with the AB's and look what happened in 2011, I would say it takes more than a whole cycle to build a squad properly, let alone half a cycle

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes it was a failure. No 2 ways about it. That Irish team was not picked right in my eyes. And had no depth developed. The Madigan situation being the biggest issue. Agreed Schmidt only had half a cycle and not enough time to develop depth. But as you said the greatest prepared team who achived no better than 2011 or other years gone past. Yes there was injuries but still a failure ultimately. Not 100% on Schmidt but he has learnt. Madigan situation being 1. He has made sure his back up is playing regularly at top level as a 10.
2015 cant be blamed on injuries. Every team will get that. Look at NZ in 2011. It's adapting to them that seperated the best from the rest.
But ultimately Ireland failed miserably on their targets at that RWC. Again not fully Schmidts fault. But as a whole they failed.
But as I said on Schmidt he learnt from it and what makes him good is he knows what to correct and has corrected it

You said Schmidt failed miserably the first time, that's ridiculously unfair on a guy who didn't have a full cycle to prepare. This time you've reverted to Schmidt was not fully to blame which is fairer but still a bit much considering it infers most the blame on him. The IRFU were more to blame in my opinion, we'd had 12 years with two coaches who weren't world class before Joe's arrival and that's why he had to take shortcuts building depth.

If you think Madigan was Joe's biggest mistake in that RWC I'd suggest watching it again, having Earls as back up 13, Henry as back up 7, White as back up 3 and D Kearney as back up wing were all bigger oversights and most of them proved more costly. I'd be surprised if we have a 10 better than Mads was under Schmidt next year, Carbery will likely be around his equal.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I wouldn't be too hard on our backs. Sure we don't have a back three with the something out of nothing potential of NZ but we do have Murray, Sexton and Ringrose and they can all magic something up. We can always throw Carbery and Larmour off the bench and hope for the best. Realistically if we end up more than a try down we're going to try and kick our way back into a game instead of trying anything fancy.

But yeah, I'd be a lot more confident in Leinster's ability to come back from behind than I would with Ireland.

Just remember we have this guy and remember what he did in 2011 if you ever
get too pessimistic though.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Henshaw is criminally underrated too. As good as Aki was the last two weeks Henshaw basically brings everything we saw with strong passing and kicking as well as a better ability to read the game on both sides of the ball. It's really unfortunate that him and Ringrose have only played twice together in green.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Henshaw is criminally underrated too. As good as Aki was the last two weeks Henshaw basically brings everything we saw with strong passing and kicking as well as a better ability to read the game on both sides of the ball. It's really unfortunate that him and Ringrose have only played twice together in green.

Aki gas really come into his own in green but if Ireland ever manage to stop breaking Leinster's centres there's no doubt that Henshaw/Ringrose is the best option. Can't think of another pair I'd take over them anywhere in the world right now tbh.

The current Irish team's main weakness is the fact that our back three is probably behind almost every other Tier 1 country from a pure gamebreaking counterattacking POV but defensively they're as good as anyone. Kearney and Earls are two of the smartest defenders around and Ringrose reads the game as well as anyone from 13 since the guy we don't compare young players to. (Ringrose is a brilliant attacker though as well)

 

[mania]

sfunny that nz press is calling for kRead and hansen to be dropped after that loss.
talk about chucking the baby out with the bath water

 

[Kiwiwomble]

sfunny that nz press is calling for kRead and hansen to be dropped after that loss.
talk about chucking the baby out with the bath water

not Hansen but i think we do need to prepare for Reads replacement, maybe he needs to get sub'ed, i dont want to assume he's got 80min in him only to find out he doesnt anymore when we get a big game, he looks tired and we're now in a situation where he rests quite a bit next years and we risk him not being match sharp...or he plays most of the super season and we risk him being shattered again this time next year

 

[Umaga's Witness]

So I'm sure this has all been said, but...

Firstly, congratulations to Ireland, the best team in the world right now. Composed, unified, and accurate, with subtleties galore.

The All Blacks made bad decisions. I was kinda worried given their poor decision making of late but was hopeful they'd get their act together as a lost of these players have been good decisions makers in big games in the past. Turns out they've lost it, at least for now (when it matters). Potentially it is just such a habit for them to not care about a given decision, as most have been playing in this manner over the last few years at all levels.

Now I'd like to add a few I told you so's to make myself feel better:

I told you Kieran Read is overrated, so hopefully people will stop calling him world class. He is world class on his best days, but he is terribly inconsistent so, on average, he is far off it. He doesn't compare to someone like vermeulen, for instance.

I told you Ardie was good.

I haven't read any of the post game posts, but i assume I can say I told you someone would be complaining about the ref.

Going through the individual performances shirt number by number, only Ardie Savea from the All Blacks would make the best of starting team. ALB would certainly beat out all the reserves though (another I told you so).

I told you Beauden and Damian should have swapped positions. Damian made good decisions, executed passes far far better, but suffered in the air due to being lightweight and Ireland kicking shallow, forcing him to advance such that he was facing forward when he caught the ball, which isn't ideal when you are lightweight .

So, adding up those I told you so's, in a way I win, because of the proof that was in that awfully sour pudding. Pease don't be sore losers about it.

All hail our mighty wizard president.

looks like a leprechaun to me, a magical one though I guess.

Peter O'Mahony has shown why he's 1 of best 6s around. Vital for us. Van Der Flier flying it too and Stander having huge game too. Ryan and Toner too playing well. Our back 5 of pack really setting tone.

the props were impressive around the park too

Oh but they do but they wait. Lers not forget Andy Farrell record against NZ is pretty good.

I did not know that. Any stats?

Lers not forget Andy Farrell record against NZ is pretty good.

I did not know that. Any stats?

Peter O'Mahony has been immense.

next captain?

NZ unusually rushing things and making a lot of incorrect decisions. Massively unusual to them and credit to the pressure Ireland have put them under.

Still could go either way.

yeah, except it has been quite usual this year. i'm hoping they haven't lost that aspect from their culture.

Yeehaa!!

good luck next time england.

The NZ'ers deserve huge credit for their effort in the last 20. .

Sweet of you to say so

Our back row played them off the pitch. Savea, Squire and Barrett wouldn't make our 23.

Based on that game savea would have made your 23. He and ALB the only ones though.

We lack line breakers more than anything these days, who from our team would you call a line breaker?

reek, beaten, damian, ALB... give the defence some credit, and recognise that playmaking is more important for line breaks than the line breaking player himself. it was very similar to 2003 WC semifinal that game, in both of those respects.

Easily. A top coach.

ahh, there we go, the answer to a question i posted after this answer had been posted....say that ten times fast.

Just for NZ fans. What was the story with selection these last few months ye seem unsure who to play where

ummm.......................................................................................