[2018 November Tests] Ireland vs New Zealand (17/11/18)

[Umaga's Witness]

..before he went to Europe in 2015...well thats years ago now so the comparison between then and now is hardly relevent..

if we are just going off now, then it is clear that Vermeulen is better. My point was that if you were suggesting he had been poor in European club rugby then I couldn't refute that, because I haven't watched it, but that since he has been excellent for the Springboks this year, and was before he left, I can only presume that he was also excellent in between.

 

[ncurd]

good luck next time england.

I'm celebrating a historic win it's Ireland's first ever home win V NZ and they've been deserving of breaking that barrier for well over a decade now. Plus I have some Irish heritage (Great Grandparent so no passport for me) so I'm always happy when they succeed, same actually goes for SA (which I also don't qualify for citizenship for under their rules despite it being a Grandparent this time) of course this changes when they play England.

 

[Carlito]

...

if we are just going off now, then it is clear that Vermeulen is better. My point was that if you were suggesting he had been poor in European club rugby then I couldn't refute that, because I haven't watched it, but that since he has been excellent for the Springboks this year, and was before he left, I can only presume that he was also excellent in between.

So you haven't seen him play in Europe or against England this year which does'nt leave much to base an opinion upon ...but i can see you've made your mind up so i won;t press the point...

 

[Umaga's Witness]

...

So you haven't seen him play in Europe or against England this year which does'nt leave much to base an opinion upon ...but i can see you've made your mind up so i won;t press the point...

i have seen him play against england this year. he was world class.

was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now its clear you are a troll.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I'm celebrating a historic win it's Ireland's first ever home win V NZ and they've been deserving of breaking that barrier for well over a decade now. Plus I have some Irish heritage (Great Grandparent so no passport for me) so I'm always happy when they succeed, same actually goes for SA (which I also don't qualify for citizenship for under their rules despite it being a Grandparent this time) of course this changes when they play England.

fair enough. i just support the all blacks and then the islands because there are a lot of NZers with first and second cousins in the islands.

 

[munstermuffin]

You said Schmidt failed miserably the first time, that's ridiculously unfair on a guy who didn't have a full cycle to prepare. This time you've reverted to Schmidt was not fully to blame which is fairer but still a bit much considering it infers most the blame on him. The IRFU were more to blame in my opinion, we'd had 12 years with two coaches who weren't world class before Joe's arrival and that's why he had to take shortcuts building depth.

If you think Madigan was Joe's biggest mistake in that RWC I'd suggest watching it again, having Earls as back up 13, Henry as back up 7, White as back up 3 and D Kearney as back up wing were all bigger oversights and most of them proved more costly. I'd be surprised if we have a 10 better than Mads was under Schmidt next year, Carbery will likely be around his equal.

Well seen as he had half a cycle he does carry some of the burden. Like as I said not entirely and there was some bad luck but equally there no 2 ways.
I'd consider both Joey and Ross Byrne much more better as 10s than Madigan at the time. And both are playing as 10s which is why.
The rest as you mentioned were flaws too.

Also as I said IRFU, Kidney, Eddie and much more are part of blame too. But Schmidt does not get off scot free. But equally as I said he has became much better for it as he has built a squad. And if Ireland fail next year I think it will be due to players more so. Schmidt has built depth and managed to minimise disruption in case of injuries.
Look he's a world class coach so I not suprised on that either.
But there's no doubt Schmidt learnt more from last RWC than we think. Last time he was over reliant on Leinster players. Again I accept that was because they knew his structures better. But like Madigan. He relied on him for that more so than being a better 10. Now he realises its key to have a 10 playing regularly. That is why he wanted Joey or Byrne to move and have all 3 options playing often at 10.
Like the Madigan scenario you can get away with at club game but it's exposed faster at international level. Now Schmidt again doesn't shoulder all that blame but these are facts.
You just have to look at how he has changed his approach over years to see that.
Whatever about Leinster bias I said in past if you look now there is no bias more so a case he will pick lads he rates but they need to be playing regularly with exceptions being guys like Sexton or Murray etc being rushed back

 

[Carlito]

i have seen him play against england this year. he was world class.

was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now its clear you are a troll.

Well name calling usually just means your arguments are weak.. you are presuming some one has been excellent without watching them is what you said which is bizarre.....but feel free to worship South African players over New Zealanders...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I wouldn't be too hard on Schmidt re 2015, just remember 2007 was Henry's first RWC with the AB's and look what happened in 2011, I would say it takes more than a whole cycle to build a squad properly, let alone half a cycle

I think it's 5-6 years to build a proper RWC winning squad. E.g. England from 1998 tour of hell getting spanked 76-0 by the Wallabies away to winning in 2003. That was interspersed by being drop goaled out of 1999 RWC by Jannie are Beer. Of course, the ABs from 2005 amazing the Lions 3 zip, the pain of 2007 to triumphant back to back RWCs in 2011 -15. May well be Ireland's time now.

i was going to give you a like until you said the thing about chris rattue. stop giving journalists the credit they don't deserve. do you not know it is their job to antagonise? They are not real opinions. Ignore them.

It was a criticism of a Kiwi journalist not of the Kiwi supporters. We have our own antagonist by the name of Stephen Jones.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well seen as he had half a cycle he does carry some of the burden. Like as I said not entirely and there was some bad luck but equally there no 2 ways.
I'd consider both Joey and Ross Byrne much more better as 10s than Madigan at the time. And both are playing as 10s which is why.
The rest as you mentioned were flaws too.

Also as I said IRFU, Kidney, Eddie and much more are part of blame too. But Schmidt does not get off scot free. But equally as I said he has became much better for it as he has built a squad. And if Ireland fail next year I think it will be due to players more so. Schmidt has built depth and managed to minimise disruption in case of injuries.
Look he's a world class coach so I not suprised on that either.
But there's no doubt Schmidt learnt more from last RWC than we think. Last time he was over reliant on Leinster players. Again I accept that was because they knew his structures better. But like Madigan. He relied on him for that more so than being a better 10. Now he realises its key to have a 10 playing regularly. That is why he wanted Joey or Byrne to move and have all 3 options playing often at 10.
Like the Madigan scenario you can get away with at club game but it's exposed faster at international level. Now Schmidt again doesn't shoulder all that blame but these are facts.
You just have to look at how he has changed his approach over years to see that.
Whatever about Leinster bias I said in past if you look now there is no bias more so a case he will pick lads he rates but they need to be playing regularly with exceptions being guys like Sexton or Murray etc being rushed back

I honestly don't understand "the Madigan scenario". I think it's a narrative that was pushed by the media even though apart from two poor kicks that Argentina game was one of Madigan's most composed and commanding games ever as a 10 and he was an instrumental part of the comeback while not being a weaklink in defence but "Maverick Blackrock boy lets country down" is a better story than "Why did we push Jordi Murphy into 6 to accomodate Chris Henry when Rhys Ruddock is on the bench?" or "Keith Earls at 13... Again... Really?".

Ironically Carbery is far more the maverick player than Madigan, he will be less proven at high levels than Mads was going into 2015 and for my money isn't as good as Mads was playing under Schmidt in 2014/15. The kid better hope Johnny doesn't go down next Autumn or he'll be fast tracked to Bordeaux quicker than he can say Simon Zebo.

The rest is fair enough, yeah Schmidt isn't blameless but his employers gave him a pretty impossible task.

 

[ncurd]

I think it's 5-6 years to build a proper RWC winning squad. E.g. England from 1998 tour of hell getting spanked 76-0 by the Wallabies away to winning in 2003. That was interspersed by being drop goaled out of 1999 RWC by Jannie are Beer. Of course, the ABs from 2005 amazing the Lions 3 zip, the pain of 2007 to triumphant back to back RWCs in 2011 -15. May well be Ireland's time now.

Aye 2003 England and 2011/15 NZ didn't just sprout magically from the ground. There were tough years and losses for those players.

England might have got their act together a little sooner but the 90's were hardly torrid years but the dawn of professionalism possibly had some impact on the lack of prolonged legacy.

Infact in many ways you can see parallells between this ABs side and 2004-7 England crippled by the loss of all time great players but still hugely competitive. At least they didn't hire Andy Robinson.

 

[munstermuffin]

I honestly don't understand "the Madigan scenario". I think it's a narrative that was pushed by the media even though apart from two poor kicks that Argentina game was one of Madigan's most composed and commanding games ever as a 10 and he was an instrumental part of the comeback while not being a weaklink in defence but "Maverick Blackrock boy lets country down" is a better story than "Why did we push Jordi Murphy into 6 to accomodate Chris Henry when Rhys Ruddock is on the bench?" or "Keith Earls at 13... Again... Really?".

Ironically Carbery is far more the maverick player than Madigan, he will be less proven at high levels than Mads was going into 2015 and for my money isn't as good as Mads was playing under Schmidt in 2014/15. The kid better hope Johnny doesn't go down next Autumn or he'll be fast tracked to Bordeaux quicker than he can say Simon Zebo.

The rest is fair enough, yeah Schmidt isn't blameless but his employers gave him a pretty impossible task.

I'd disagree on Madigan. Back then he never looked assured as a 10. And I think was overrated and not deserving over PJ.
Yes Carbery is more maverick but is learning from playing 10 regularly. That is only way to learn it. Madigan himself said as much.
Not arguing that he may have been made 100^ scapegoat but equally there was reason he never made it as 10 in anyones eyes on this islandat time. When Sexton went to Paris he never swallowed up the chanc3. You can blame MOC or whover but that cant be used 100%.
I'd disagree on Joey or Byrne being less experienced too as both playing 10 regularly and Joey starting in European games and playing full 80 as a 10. I'm saying both Byrne and Joey will be much better options and more able to fill role.
As I always said I think Madigan was way over hyped as a 10. Not as a rugby player just as a 10. His best rugby in Leinster was at 15 or when he came in at 12. He has never had the kicking game that Joey has to some extent and Ross Byrne has

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'd disagree on Madigan. Back then he never looked assured as a 10. And I think was overrated and not deserving over PJ.
Yes Carbery is more maverick but is learning from playing 10 regularly. That is only way to learn it. Madigan himself said as much.
Not arguing that he may have been made 100^ scapegoat but equally there was reason he never made it as 10 in anyones eyes on this islandat time. When Sexton went to Paris he never swallowed up the chanc3. You can blame MOC or whover but that cant be used 100%.
I'd disagree on Joey or Byrne being less experienced too as both playing 10 regularly and Joey starting in European games and playing full 80 as a 10. I'm saying both Byrne and Joey will be much better options and more able to fill role.
As I always said I think Madigan was way over hyped as a 10. Not as a rugby player just as a 10. His best rugby in Leinster was at 15 or when he came in at 12. He has never had the kicking game that Joey has to some extent and Ross Byrne has

Madigan was maybe at the same level as Joey and Ross are now but the difference is that he was far more proven both internationally and in terms of elite games as well than either of them.

Ian Madigan wasn't the reason we lost that qf, that's more on Dave Kearney and Keith Earls who we shouldn't have picked ahead of Luke Fitzgerald, same with Chris Henry and Rhys Ruddock. The media peddled the 'blame Madigan' story because it made for a nice narrative but it doesn't hold up. We lost that game with ludicrously poor wide defence, it would have been the sane result if we'd picked Jackson or if Madigan had been playing 10 instead of 12 for Leinster at the time.

Schmidt couldn't really have done much differently, he had two years in the job and then he had to watch his entire leadership group go down in the same game, sure he picked the wrong players to replace then but the damage had been done.

 

[munstermuffin]

Madigan was maybe at the same level as Joey and Ross are now but the difference is that he was far more proven both internationally and in terms of elite games as well than either of them.

Ian Madigan wasn't the reason we lost that qf, that's more on Dave Kearney and Keith Earls who we shouldn't have picked ahead of Luke Fitzgerald, same with Chris Henry and Rhys Ruddock. The media peddled the 'blame Madigan' story because it made for a nice narrative but it doesn't hold up. We lost that game with ludicrously poor wide defence, it would have been the sane result if we'd picked Jackson or if Madigan had been playing 10 instead of 12 for Leinster at the time.

Schmidt couldn't really have done much differently, he had two years in the job and then he had to watch his entire leadership group go down in the same game, sure he picked the wrong players to replace then but the damage had been done.

But by saying he picked wrong replacements you're effectively agreeing he was at some fault.
I disagree on Madigan. I think Einster fans viewed him as a better 10 than he was butba seperate argument. I disagree on Fitz over Earls as a winger. Luke over DK yes. But again Luke played well when brought on but was a gamble due to injury past and not much to base a form level either good or bad.
It may have been same result but may not have been. We will never know.

 

[Leinster Fan]

But by saying he picked wrong replacements you're effectively agreeing he was at some fault.
I disagree on Madigan. I think Einster fans viewed him as a better 10 than he was butba seperate argument. I disagree on Fitz over Earls as a winger. Luke over DK yes. But again Luke played well when brought on but was a gamble due to injury past and not much to base a form level either good or bad.
It may have been same result but may not have been. We will never know.

Of course he has to take some blame, you don't lose knockout games by more than 20 points and then declare the coach blameless. Fitzgerald and Earls was more at 13 where Luke was always better. But realistically 90% of the reason we lost that game was injuries and we didn't have time to prepare for that eventuality. We should give credit to Argentina as well, they played brilliantly (probably easily their best performance of since 2007 to be honest).

 

[munstermuffin]

Of course he has to take some blame, you don't lose knockout games by more than 20 points and then declare the coach blameless. Fitzgerald and Earls was more at 13 where Luke was always better. But realistically 90% of the reason we lost that game was injuries and we didn't have time to prepare for that eventuality. We should give credit to Argentina as well, they played brilliantly (probably easily their best performance of since 2007 to be honest).

Sorry thought you meant Fitz ahead of Earls as a wing. Of course Earls at 13 was tried and failed before. But I agree with rest too.
But my main point is being lost. It's how Schmidt learnt from all these and on his side no stone is left unturned. We played NZ without a marquee worldclass player in Murrau and nobody seemed to loose any confidence. Never mind adding in Henshaw, Sean O'Brien and Leavy.
He has built depth and well basically wired lads to know what to do

 

[Leinster Fan]

Sorry thought you meant Fitz ahead of Earls as a wing. Of course Earls at 13 was tried and failed before. But I agree with rest too.
But my main point is being lost. It's how Schmidt learnt from all these and on his side no stone is left unturned. We played NZ without a marquee worldclass player in Murrau and nobody seemed to loose any confidence. Never mind adding in Henshaw, Sean O'Brien and Leavy.
He has built depth and well basically wired lads to know what to do

Yeah I'd agree depth is far better now than it's even being. We're never going to have to see Keith Earls at 13 again. In most positions we've got a player who can step in and to the sane job, look at Porter coming in for Furlong against Wales, for years if a tighthead went down that was it in terms of having a chance.

Same at 9, Murray goes down and it's one of a list, instead of needing to go on a mass search to find another scrumhalf.

 

[mania]

come on, be serious, quoting tries that a forward scores isn't proof of how good they are, because that' not their main job. Different players play different roles of course, and Reads has been a more open running role (I actually think the coaches need to direct him back toward that sort of role to be honest), but Vermeulen's impact in the tight is extraordinary. To make the point about stats a bit further, what do the stats say on contributions to securing rucks? They don't, that's what. So even in the realm they reside (objectively measurable things) they are lacking.

isnt it anyones job to score tries? yes you have your core and primary roles but if u can score tries as well your stock shoots up.
reads still got it. even in that ireland test read (sWhitelock, retallick and aSavea) were all working hard, making tackles and clearing rucks.
reads running game was snuffed out , but then everyone, squire, ioane, crotty,bender etc,was being stopped by the ireland defence. no one was making very much yards against that green wave.
no need to panic. reads still the best 8 around. one game doesnt make him a bad player

 

[Carlito]

isnt it anyones job to score tries? yes you have your core and primary roles but if u can score tries as well your stock shoots up.
reads still got it. even in that ireland test read (sWhitelock, retallick and aSavea) were all working hard, making tackles and clearing rucks.
reads running game was snuffed out , but then everyone, squire, ioane, crotty,bender etc,was being stopped by the ireland defence. no one was making very much yards against that green wave.
no need to panic. reads still the best 8 around. one game doesnt make him a bad player

Yea you could add Read's a very viable option in the lineout to that ...which is one of the ABs great strengths giving us at least 5 lineout options compared to Aussies two locks option given their loosies are all a bunch of shorties....
...sad really to see Read's amazing stats don't count for much to some though... a completely illogical argument to say it's not his job to score tries but you're a troll for confronting someone about the absurdity of it...
btw Read was injured during the game don't forget was'nt he, but soldiered on regardless like a trooper to his credit...
To my way of thinking this current skapegoating of players is complete bs.... Win some, lose some, such is life is a better way to look at it...we'll take the lessons and come back stronger...

 

[mania]

To my way of thinking this current skapegoating of players is complete bs.... Win some, lose some, such is life is a better way to look at it...we'll take the lessons and come back stronger...

agree about the scapegoating.
no single player was to blame. the fault lies with Ireland in that they played an awesome game and were just better on the day.
it happens. ABs are mere mortals, they are gonna lose games.
do you drop the players that have provided NZ with this goldenAge because of one game? no hansen will show loyalty to the players and the players have loyalty for hansen. thats hansens and this goldenAges secret to success. loyalty.
read (and the rest of the ABs) needs a rest is all.
watch the game again and see how many tackles read put in, rucks cleaned and secured and you'll see that his contributions are still better than any 8 out there.
retallick and sWhitelock despite showing a lot of exhaustion and being a little less effective than usual were still putting in a lot of work.
ABs didnt play bad. they are still a world class side but Ireland played awesome and were irresistible .
ireland are about to discover (as england already have) its easy to get to the top. the hard part is staying up there. i hope ireland get their #1 ranking that they deserve. it will liven up world rugby and take focus off the ABs

 

[Carlito]

watch the game again and see how many tackles read put in, rucks cleaned and secured and you'll see that his contributions are still better than any 8 out there.
retallick and sWhitelock despite showing a lot of exhaustion and being a little less effective than usual were still putting in a lot of work.
ABs didnt play bad. they are still a world class side but Ireland played awesome and were irresistible .

I agree , i thought the Irish defended like demons but was even more surprised to see our tackle count was actually even higher than theirs. Shows we kicked away/ threw away too much possesion i guess.
Re the Irish succeeding the ABs to No1 in world rankings: Given the next AB game after Italy is not til mid year 2019, Ireland 6 Nations tournament starting before that in Feb gives Ireland the opportunity to get enough points to overtake us...Tough competition that Six Nations though with Wales and England also strong, even Scotland have improved so i have my doubts they will win all their games like they did last year...a year is a long time in sport and many things can change in that time...