[2018 November Tests] Wales vs South Africa (24/11/18)

[SomeOke]

SA move to third if we win by any margin...
Just saying .

Id imagine this will be our toughest game on tour though, we're going to have to try and find another gear after a long year.

 

[bushytop]

As much of a fan as I am of Watkin, I don't think he's done quite enough to usurp Parkes quite yet.

As Dull has mentioned, Hadleigh has only really had one bad game for Wales (vs Scotland) and up until that point was probably one of Wales' best player of 2017-2018.

He was quiet in attack against Oz but so was pretty much the whole backline, I'm happy with him getting another start but Owen Watkin is there ready to jump in should his performances not pick up.

 

[oj121]

As stated previously the 12/13 shirt haa a right lack of depth at the moment when everywhere else looks so strong. Could Patchell go there long term is Anscombe holds down the 10? What happened to Owen Williams? Patchell is strong and fast enough to play 12, good in defence runs good lines. Often wondered that as with Dan Jones the Scarlets have a decent 10 to allow him to move out one and give it a run. I would say the same for Anscombe too outside of Jarrod Evans.

 

[bushytop]

As stated previously the 12/13 shirt haa a right lack of depth at the moment when everywhere else looks so strong. Could Patchell go there long term is Anscombe holds down the 10? What happened to Owen Williams? Patchell is strong and fast enough to play 12, good in defence runs good lines. Often wondered that as with Dan Jones the Scarlets have a decent 10 to allow him to move out one and give it a run. I would say the same for Anscombe too outside of Jarrod Evans.

Patch is definitely big enough... 6ft 3in & a shade under 15 stone. Deffo worth a go at some point.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Owen Williams can't even get into the Gloucester team at the moment. There was talk of him going to the dragons at the start of the season and I think that would have been good for him.

 

[oj121]

I thought it spelt some bench time when they signed Cips. Basically an A+ version of Williams....

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I am not sure about Beard. Hes a huge guy but our lineout seems off kilter when he is on,(think people underestkmste Hill here) does a lot of pushing at mauls but almost always upright rather then using his body properly and doesnt have the grit and carrying of Ball. He doesnt really offer anything that AWJ does and to me looks more like the long term replacement than a fit to play alongside him. Am I om my own here?

Looking at Kriel hitting the short ball into Parkes with Le Roux as 2nd reciever to take the space created or pick up on the missed tackle. Lydiate is going to have to tackle like a man possessed on sat.

I think I know what your saying, at least I hope so, I think that ball is much the same as AWJ where as Hill and Beard are different types of SR, therefore the choice for divergence is greater with Hill or Beard

 

[oj121]

I think I know what your saying, at least I hope so, I think that ball is much the same as AWJ where as Hill and Beard are different types of SR, therefore the choice for divergence is greater with Hill or Beard

Im kinda saying beard is a lesser AWJ but the other too offer different things. With Beard in there we lose out in areas that maybe AWJ isnt the best. I dont think the balance is right with Beard in there. He isnt hard running enough yet(Ball) He tries things but his energy kind of goes into the wrong things because he feels like he needs to be seen doing things, he isnt a lineout general(with Hill in there out retention seems better. Ball is also a better jumper imo). Ball and Hill seem to offer some of those things missing giving better balance.

Do not get me wrong Beard will get there and become one of those things but i cant help but feel he is being forced forward rather than pushed. I dont think he knows what type of lock he really is yet and dont think the bosses do either. Seb Davies is a better current option too but seems in the wilds. 3 or 4 years time we could have a shrewd jumper and athlete in Davies paired with an enforcer like Beard(what i think he could be) but AWJ doesnt need an enforcer type lock next to him. He needs legs!

Beard is only 21 and thats very young for an international lock but a massive schooling my someone like Estabeth or similar may knock him back. Look how Itoje went off the boil and stopped progressing when forced in there.

 

[bushytop]

Im kinda saying beard is a lesser AWJ but the other too offer different things. With Beard in there we lose out in areas that maybe AWJ isnt the best. I dont think the balance is right with Beard in there. He isnt hard running enough yet(Ball) He tries things but his energy kind of goes into the wrong things because he feels like he needs to be seen doing things, he isnt a lineout general(with Hill in there out retention seems better. Ball is also a better jumper imo). Ball and Hill seem to offer some of those things missing giving better balance.

Do not get me wrong Beard will get there and become one of those things but i cant help but feel he is being forced forward rather than pushed. I dont think he knows what type of lock he really is yet and dont think the bosses do either. Seb Davies is a better current option too but seems in the wilds. 3 or 4 years time we could have a shrewd jumper and athlete in Davies paired with an enforcer like Beard(what i think he could be) but AWJ doesnt need an enforcer type lock next to him. He needs legs!

Beard is only 21 and thats very young for an international lock but a massive schooling my someone like Estabeth or similar may knock him back. Look how Itoje went off the boil and stopped progressing when forced in there.

I personally would've gone with Ball but I think the main reasons Gats has picked him are:

Size and weight (As the bok forwards are huge)

Tackle count (he makes quite a few tackles and don't miss many)

Offensive and defensive Mauls (he looks very effective at Mauls much like Charteris used too)

All of these things could prove particularly effective against SA.

 

[oj121]

He 'looks' effective. Standing up in a maul is pointless unless you have hold of the ball carrier. He is always verticle. That size and strength should be used lower down to drive through the maul. Im sure it was someone like Warburton that did a piece on it between games and highlighted how pointless being upright was.

Charteris was exceptional as he had go go gadget arms. He could bind at the back and still reach the ball carrier . You have to be weird proportions to do what Charteris did.

 

[bushytop]

He 'looks' effective. Standing up in a maul is pointless unless you have hold of the ball carrier. He is always verticle. That size and strength should be used lower down to drive through the maul. Im sure it was someone like Warburton that did a piece on it between games and highlighted how pointless being upright was.

Charteris was exceptional as he had go go gadget arms. He could bind at the back and still reach the ball carrier . You have to be weird proportions to do what Charteris did.

Maybe... but it appeared (to me) as if he was effecting the maul in a positive manner. If his body position was a particular problem I'm sure it would been highlighted during training let alone him being given another start in what will be a really tight game.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Im kinda saying beard is a lesser AWJ but the other too offer different things. With Beard in there we lose out in areas that maybe AWJ isnt the best. I dont think the balance is right with Beard in there. He isnt hard running enough yet(Ball) He tries things but his energy kind of goes into the wrong things because he feels like he needs to be seen doing things, he isnt a lineout general(with Hill in there out retention seems better. Ball is also a better jumper imo). Ball and Hill seem to offer some of those things missing giving better balance.

Do not get me wrong Beard will get there and become one of those things but i cant help but feel he is being forced forward rather than pushed. I dont think he knows what type of lock he really is yet and dont think the bosses do either. Seb Davies is a better current option too but seems in the wilds. 3 or 4 years time we could have a shrewd jumper and athlete in Davies paired with an enforcer like Beard(what i think he could be) but AWJ doesnt need an enforcer type lock next to him. He needs legs!

Beard is only 21 and thats very young for an international lock but a massive schooling my someone like Estabeth or similar may knock him back. Look how Itoje went off the boil and stopped progressing when forced in there.

OK, I think its Ball who is more like Wyn Jones, My choice would be Hill just, as you say Beard will get there I'm sure, but what a position to be in we have 4 locks capable of playing for us

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Maybe... but it appeared (to me) as if he was effecting the maul in a positive manner. If his body position was a particular problem I'm sure it would been highlighted during training let alone him being given another start in what will be a really tight game.

I agree, that would have been the case.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This is the first time in two years I've wanted Wales to win, it usually doesn't end well though.

I reckon this is the least predictable match of the Autumn. SA are looking good but only winning half the time while Wales are winning all of their games without being wholly convincing.

Wales by 4.

 

[bushytop]

This is the first time in two years I've wanted Wales to win, it usually doesn't end well though.

I reckon this is the least predictable match of the Autumn. SA are looking good but only winning half the time while Wales are winning all of their games without being wholly convincing.

Wales by 4.

Get your a$$ of our bandwagon... sounds like you're bad luck!

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Wales by 1.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Lots of reasons why I can't pick a winner:

- jury out on Anscombe / Parkes tandem (big Patchell fan here).
- Boks somehow improving with Kriel / DDA despite having the same backs coach and them being bloody ordinary in 2017. So the Boks are now more of a scoring threat.
- Gatland unpredictable in terms of how loose he'll let his sides play.
- Papier really untested at scrum-half (although did well against Scotland)

I like the Welsh backs generally quite a lot here. There are running threats across the park and I think they'll get a few line breaks /if/ Gatland cuts them loose a little. If Warren enters a conservative arm wrestle then the Boks will squeak it.

Wales by 2

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Wales by 1.

that would be enough for me

 

[oj121]

Maybe... but it appeared (to me) as if he was effecting the maul in a positive manner. If his body position was a particular problem I'm sure it would been highlighted during training let alone him being given another start in what will be a really tight game.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...Vaw3U2sWn8UgvkHM61my4KU40&cshid=1543000740076

No where does it say to stand up right and try and pull with arms. A lot of people do it as they cant help but try and grab the jumper and then you are upright. Its natural to do it. The effective way is to drop low and drive as you are then stronger. As I said before it 'looks' effective as you look like you are doing loads. A decent maul is so hard to stop and you need proper discipline to do it. I cant fomd the warburton clip where he discussed it but he was talking about people looking busy by standing up and pulling.

Game will be won and lost on an error or moment of magic I think. I hope G.Davies kicking is on point tomorrow or Le Roux will punish us.

I think Wales have their best back 3 out so hoping for some fireworks and the bench will mean Wales should be stronger come 60 minutes.

 

[bushytop]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...Vaw3U2sWn8UgvkHM61my4KU40&cshid=1543000740076

No where does it say to stand up right and try and pull with arms. A lot of people do it as they cant help but try and grab the jumper and then you are upright. Its natural to do it. The effective way is to drop low and drive as you are then stronger. As I said before it 'looks' effective as you look like you are doing loads. A decent maul is so hard to stop and you need proper discipline to do it. I cant fomd the warburton clip where he discussed it but he was talking about people looking busy by standing up and pulling.

Game will be won and lost on an error or moment of magic I think. I hope G.Davies kicking is on point tomorrow or Le Roux will punish us.

I think Wales have their best back 3 out so hoping for some fireworks and the bench will mean Wales should be stronger come 60 minutes.

... fair enough dude but like I said, the coaches will be on any 'obvious' work ons like an Englishman on a debatable refereeing decision; if indeed they deem it a work on.

Personally, Ball would be my number one foil for Alan Wyn, Cory Hill my second and maybe even Bradley my third but Gats clearly sees something in Beard... and (so far at least) he has not let his coaches or the country down.

Also, at his age and stage of development, I expect him to learn and improve at a faster pace than at any other time in what I assume will be a long and more than decent career.