[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs France (06/12/20)

[Not Eddie Jones]

Thank goodness we didn't win the Autumn Nations Cup. Imagine how bad this board would have been if we'd have won it.

 

[Scotty]

What about Billy? Put in some decent carries, big hits and a good workrate. He seems to have had a good game but didnt pay close attention to him. How did he do? Still obv want an alternative trialled before he gets injured not after but still

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

What about Billy? Put in some decent carries, big hits and a good workrate. He seems to have had a good game but didnt pay close attention to him. How did he do? Still obv want an alternative trialled before he gets injured not after but still

He was his usual self, got over the gainline, tied up two or three tacklers at a time on his runs, tackled lots, drove people back in the tackle. Pretty solid without being spectacular.

 

[Mikey12]

I'd be surprised if there's a grand slam also this coming 6N but, it's all about momentum.

 

[Mikey12]

He was his usual self, got over the gainline, tied up two or three tacklers at a time on his runs, tackled lots, drove people back in the tackle. Pretty solid without being spectacular.

He also got put on his back a couple of times by the French 7. He had a good game without being standout for me.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

He also got put on his back a couple of times by the French 7. He had a good game without being standout for me.

Yup.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

What about Billy? Put in some decent carries, big hits and a good workrate. He seems to have had a good game but didnt pay close attention to him. How did he do? Still obv want an alternative trialled before he gets injured not after but still

He was decent, looked like he was getting a bit more back into how he was in his prime but still lacks real impact. I think part of it is how we use him, we intentionally send him into traffic and never try to get him hitting a soft shoulder. I could live with us continuing to use BV if we try him in a slightly different area of the field where sometimes he can look to make a clean break rather than just running into brick walls.

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

And then when we stop winning, and have no plan B?

Like I said: short term vs long term
I want us to build a squad that can win the next world cup
Our form is regressing atm, even if we're still managing to win ugly, and we're not looking at strengthening the side.

Agree
what I see is that England, well known here as a perfect team in term of continue and permanent renewal of its players, looks like stopping this permanent evolution. We're used to this in France where revolution is also with players generations, and the one coming was U20 world champions, so maybe some would now remind their names.

About this short term viewing, maybe this new fashion to create a cup for everything tends people to go for it. Sounds better than tests matches season, but not sure it help to watch further...

 

[TRF_heineken]

How can England win a final?

Rassie Erasmus: Let them wear Green...

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I don't care what they say about boring rugby, that was exciting.

and the "product", pfft what product is football? And everyone watches that. No football team plays attacking football, every team is kicking back and forwards and dawdling around.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How can England win a final?

Rassie Erasmus: Let them wear Green...

They won one yesterday?

 

[TRF_heineken]

They won one yesterday?

Exactly!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

How can England win a final?

Rassie Erasmus: Let them wear Green...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Who are you suggesting is picked? Do you not think May, Watson and Daly are 'attacking' players?

I don't think it's selection. I think it's tactics ...

Totally. And the big question is whether those are being driven from the pitch or the stands.

I watch Ford now and weep. He can bring so much more to the party and just can't be enjoying blindly hoofing it to order. His comment last week about not wanting the ticking time bomb that is the ball was utterly on message but if he actually believed that guff then I'm the Queen Mother.

 

[BPM]

I'm unhappy with the way we're playing and I agree that a run of unconvincing wins is generally followed by a run of poor results. However, I haven't had anyone along for a revolution give me a decent answer to who they'd actually pick instead?

I'd keep the majority of the team the same but change the way we play. I'd like to see Farrell dropped to show there is a consequence for his poor form but that creates other problems

I never want to see Farrell at 10 ever again (I count at least 3 stronger options), but the fact that there isn't a serious challenger for the 12 shirt means he's basically picked by default.

Devoto is about the closest challenger but rarely strings more than 3 games together and frustratingly Redpath is now playing 13 at Bath. Maybe Lawrence at 12 could work, but he's another 13 by trade which means it's another compromise.

9 is still a problem that can't be ignored, but I don't think Youngs has been anywhere near as bad as Farrell and at least Robson is getting a bit of exposure now. Other than that, Spencer has had a fairly poor start to the season and Mitchell is currently playing second fiddle to Henry Taylor at Saints.

By and large, Eddie is picking the best players and unfortunately, we can't replace what we don't have ...

In the circumstances, the priority is changing the tactics not the personnel IMO.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Last week I wrote a slightly facetious post about how the team would be better off meeting on the Thurs over a few beers. Well that's pretty much what the French did.....

We are over thinking, over analysing and not executing poor tactics particularly well. We can't be the Bas Baas but Jones has to loosen his grip and trust what is pretty much the most experienced team on the planet to get on with it. Before the game Jones said he wanted a performance that people could smile about, afterwards it was winning is everything, what more do people want, and he's clearly been stung by some of the criticism.

Personnel wise, arguably Jones has picked the "best" players, but that does not always translate into the best team. Firstly tactics have to change. Personnel wise I think we're missing 2 key things. Firstly a forward who will get us well beyond the gain line. Secondly a scrum half who just keeps us moving.....there is a time and a place for slowing things down, but it's not generally the 2nd minute. I think those players are available to Jones.

Always been an advocate for Watson at 15, but starting to like the look of Malins.

 

[BPM]

I don't think our pack is the problem. Our forwards are creating a good platform, it's just not being used very well ...

Who do you think is going to do a better job of getting us 'well beyond the gain line'?

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Aren't England touring Canada and the US next summer? Given that a good chunk of the regulars will be with the Lions in SA, I imagine those games will be where Eddie bloods the newbies. I'm pretty sure that the Argentina tour back when the Lions were in NZ was where he unearthed Tom Curry, among others. There's plenty of time before 2023 to address depth.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who do you think is going to do a better job of getting us 'well beyond the gain line'?

A better 9/10/12/13 combination

I agree pack isn't an issue - I'd like to see more rotation (especially front row and 8) just to build up the experience in the 2nd choice players, and I do question Eddies use of the bench (Earl should've come on at 8 IMO - Underhill was having a great game and had plenty left in the tank when he came off IMO) but it's definitely the backline that's a mess atm.
How much of that is personnel vs gameplan it's hard to say, but it's a **** show.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm unhappy with the way we're playing and I agree that a run of unconvincing wins is generally followed by a run of poor results. However, I haven't had anyone along for a revolution give me a decent answer to who they'd actually pick instead?

I'd keep the majority of the team the same but change the way we play. I'd like to see Farrell dropped to show there is a consequence for his poor form but that creates other problems

I never want to see Farrell at 10 ever again (I count at least 3 stronger options), but the fact that there isn't a serious challenger for the 12 shirt means he's basically picked by default.

Devoto is about the closest challenger but rarely strings more than 3 games together and frustratingly Redpath is now playing 13 at Bath. Maybe Lawrence at 12 could work, but he's another 13 by trade which means it's another compromise.

9 is still a problem that can't be ignored, but I don't think Youngs has been anywhere near as bad as Farrell and at least Robson is getting a bit of exposure now. Other than that, Spencer has had a fairly poor start to the season and Mitchell is currently playing second fiddle to Henry Taylor at Saints.

By and large, Eddie is picking the best players and unfortunately, we can't replace what we don't have ...

In the circumstances, the priority is changing the tactics not the personnel IMO.

I don't think anyone's asking for a revolution, though you've already had answers to most of your questions.
Giving Dunn 15-20 minutes instead of 0-1. Then we'd have learned whether he can cut it at international level and be ready to step up in the event of an injury.
The same could go for Obano - give him 15 minutes against Georgia to whet his appetite (though with 3 front line LHPs already, this isn't a problem).
Stuart to get some more minutes at THP - which has now happened
Jonny Hill to get some time at lock - which has now happened.
Willis to get some time at flank - which has now happened.
Mercer, Dombrandt, Simmonds or Earl at 8 (IMO Dombrandt isn't ready, and Simmonds isn't an 8) Earl makes the bench, and even reaches the pitch - alongside Billy
Robson and Spencer at 9 (Robson's finally getting some game time).
Slade, Lawrence or James at 12 (but outside Ford, not Farrell).
Thorley on the wing - instead of a centre.
Malins or Watson at 15.


Stuart, Hill, Willis and Robson have all shown that feeding in "new" players, in the way we're calling for, is possible. A place on the bench has been made for Dunn, he just wasn't allowed to show us anything.

So this "revolution" people have been calling for involves 6 instead of 5 of the players who made the bench to reach the pitch; and another couple of options spread over 5 matches.
Even those wanting Billy, Youngs or Farrell to be dropped aren't talking permanently - but for 1-2 matches to give them a kick up the arse and point out that they don't have an automatic right to the shirt. Valid options have been suggested for all 3. Valid options have been tried for all 3 - just alongside them instead of replacing them.


If, for example, someone has identified something like "Youngs and Farrell are a creative black hole, and are in a poor run of form - we can't really judge those playing outside them as they're getting nothing to play with. Whilst we're at it, Billy looks complacent, and is 2 years away from his last properly good performance" the solution isn't "what we need to do, is play Billy, Youngs and Farrell, and tinker with those playing around them, so that we can judge how they go"