• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs Ireland (21/11/20)

Rinkadink

Bench Player
Joined
Jul 16, 2016
Messages
835
Reaction score
357
Club or Nation

Bristol


Got slightly different stats (Underhill on 19 with 0 missed, same as Sinks for example) but insane nonetheless.

Quite incredible really.
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,002,147
Reaction score
7,041
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

I use the Autumn Nations Cup site ones, they track things like dominant tackles, ruck length etc.
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
3,135
Reaction score
996
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

Lawrence made 16 tackles as well with 1 miss. Pretty good for a centre.
 

Leinster Fan

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
3,013
Reaction score
1,190
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leinster

I use the Autumn Nations Cup site ones, they track things like dominant tackles, ruck length etc.
Bears out what I thought about Stander. 5 carries and one tackles. Presumably just an off day but strange nonetheless. Stats show how much work Doris got through as well.
 

Tooting Carmen

Academy Player
Joined
Sep 18, 2018
Messages
319
Reaction score
34
If anything, the scoreline was slightly flattering towards Ireland. More generally, it seems like we have gone back to the 90's since the last World Cup: Wales and to a lesser but still serious extent Ireland pretty weak, England and France very dominant and Scotland somewhere in the middle.
 

The Alpha Bro

Fat Boi
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
13,285
Reaction score
3,700
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leinster

If anything, the scoreline was slightly flattering towards Ireland. More generally, it seems like we have gone back to the 90's since the last World Cup: Wales and to a lesser but still serious extent Ireland pretty weak, England and France very dominant and Scotland somewhere in the middle.
You think Scotland are better than Ireland? Based on what exactly, it can't be results.
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,002,147
Reaction score
7,041
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

You think Scotland are better than Ireland? Based on what exactly, it can't be results.
Someone didn't watch the 6N

1606124033634.png
 

ALJ

Academy Player
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
393
Reaction score
87
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Gloucester

Maro made 24 tackles: 0 misses
Curry made 23 tackles: 0 misses
Underhill made 21 tackles: 0 misses
Binny made 22 tackles: 0 misses

That's insane
Does anyone think there’s a cause and effect here?

if you’re making that number of tackles, it has to impact your ability/capacity in other areas.

So you have monstrous tackling, which means ability to keep possession, create speed at the breakdown and so space elsewhere is going to be inhibited, right?
All the kicking has to be a tactic determined by EJ game plan, which creates a viscous circle since you rarely have the ball.

It seems to be working but can’t help feeling the focus is a little bit too much toward what Mitchell wants at the moment. Maybe the idea is to get this into the dna of the side and then start expanding from there (hope so anyway).
 

Jashay

Academy Player
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
192
Reaction score
94
Country Flag

England

Does anyone think there’s a cause and effect here?

if you’re making that number of tackles, it has to impact your ability/capacity in other areas.

So you have monstrous tackling, which means ability to keep possession, create speed at the breakdown and so space elsewhere is going to be inhibited, right?
All the kicking has to be a tactic determined by EJ game plan, which creates a viscous circle since you rarely have the ball.

It seems to be working but can’t help feeling the focus is a little bit too much toward what Mitchell wants at the moment. Maybe the idea is to get this into the dna of the side and then start expanding from there (hope so anyway).

I'm not convinced this is a recent Mitchell thing? I've felt for a while that England's greatest strength has been their defence, and the mental image I have of it is England belting forwards and making dominant tackles. It's been like that for at least two years, probably longer.

And I've been moaning about how often England kick pretty much since I joined the forum!

It feels like we're using the backs particularly poorly at the moment, though. They're like an afterthought in the game plan, or it seems that way given the poor-to-nonexistent service they're getting from Farrell and Youngs.
 

Old Hooker

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Messages
3,521
Reaction score
1,204
Country Flag

England

Does anyone think there’s a cause and effect here?

if you’re making that number of tackles, it has to impact your ability/capacity in other areas.

So you have monstrous tackling, which means ability to keep possession, create speed at the breakdown and so space elsewhere is going to be inhibited, right?
All the kicking has to be a tactic determined by EJ game plan, which creates a viscous circle since you rarely have the ball.

It seems to be working but can’t help feeling the focus is a little bit too much toward what Mitchell wants at the moment. Maybe the idea is to get this into the dna of the side and then start expanding from there (hope so anyway).

It's odd. We've never really lacked for physicality or defensive commitment. For the most part the organisation has been pretty good too.

I can't help thinking this is an over reaction to the RWC final rather than a positive step towards the greatest team in the world / history / galaxy / universe.

We got duffed up by the Boks in the RWC, but that felt much more a between the ears type issue - played our final the week before etc. The mental side / lack of leadership has probably been our biggest issue over Jones' tenure, I'd guess partly attributable to coach control freakery.

Make no mistake, this was a shadow of the Ire team of a few years ago. And the one time they did try something a bit inventive they scored. They won possession and territory 2:1 and had twice as many line breaks.....are we going to give the Boks or a semi functioning ABs the same licence? Maybe we'll get the chance against Fra soon.

The defence was undoubtedly impressive but that should be the foundation not the be all. Wales under Gatland / Edwards put a massive emphasis on defence but we have far more attacking options and strength in depth than they did.

One of the big criticisms of this side over time has been the inability to either adapt tactics on the hoof or to really put away teams when they have the chance. Playing as we are only brings these criticisms back into play.

No doubt this is Jones' tactical masterplan, but also worth noting that Faz and Ford have been around a fair while now. They both still have plenty to offer, but as you get older and more experienced you naturally become more risk averse and Ford's running game has become increasingly rare at international level. Maybe time to move Faz to 12 and bring some new blood at 10. Simmonds may be the man, he has some adventure but is also used to playing in a structured team.
 

OhEastBelfast

Academy Player
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
Messages
7
Reaction score
10
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Ulster

More importantly, why are the England players becoming like footballers with those ridiculous haircuts?...albeit, 1980s footballers
 

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,002,147
Reaction score
7,041
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

If only they could all be as handsome as quinn roux

 

Leinster Fan

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
3,013
Reaction score
1,190
Country Flag

Ireland

Club or Nation

Leinster

I'm shocked that there's been a post about the physical attractiveness of various players and there still hasn't been an image of a certain centre.

Some people are slipping up.
 

ragerancher

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
5,802
Reaction score
1,871
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

It's odd. We've never really lacked for physicality or defensive commitment. For the most part the organisation has been pretty good too.

I can't help thinking this is an over reaction to the RWC final rather than a positive step towards the greatest team in the world / history / galaxy / universe.

We got duffed up by the Boks in the RWC, but that felt much more a between the ears type issue - played our final the week before etc. The mental side / lack of leadership has probably been our biggest issue over Jones' tenure, I'd guess partly attributable to coach control freakery.

Make no mistake, this was a shadow of the Ire team of a few years ago. And the one time they did try something a bit inventive they scored. They won possession and territory 2:1 and had twice as many line breaks.....are we going to give the Boks or a semi functioning ABs the same licence? Maybe we'll get the chance against Fra soon.

The defence was undoubtedly impressive but that should be the foundation not the be all. Wales under Gatland / Edwards put a massive emphasis on defence but we have far more attacking options and strength in depth than they did.

One of the big criticisms of this side over time has been the inability to either adapt tactics on the hoof or to really put away teams when they have the chance. Playing as we are only brings these criticisms back into play.

No doubt this is Jones' tactical masterplan, but also worth noting that Faz and Ford have been around a fair while now. They both still have plenty to offer, but as you get older and more experienced you naturally become more risk averse and Ford's running game has become increasingly rare at international level. Maybe time to move Faz to 12 and bring some new blood at 10. Simmonds may be the man, he has some adventure but is also used to playing in a structured team.

Which makes it particularly baffling as you'd think Jones would be saying he wants leaders to step up yet the senior players all seem to be shirking making decisions on pitch as much as possible. Farrell blindly kicks and doesn't read the game, just follows the plan the the letter. Youngs the other day simply watching the maul get itself into a position where it was going to be turned over rather than taking it upon himself to get the ball out and try to salvage it when it was perfectly within his ability to do so. Itoje is the only "senior" who seems to also be leading, admittedly in a more limited role. I think the lack of leadership must rest with Jones, it seems he doesn't tolerate the team moving away from the plan which makes it impossible for a leader to take the game by the scruff of the neck if the plan is failing.

England's defence is pretty solid but the overly defensive mindset only works so long, eventually good sides will start to break you down and if you have no answer to it, you just sit there absorbing pressure waiting for mistakes. Ireland didn't put us under too much pressure and played into our hands but teams that are able to offload or get round the outside of us can absolutely shred our defence and then we go into headless chicken mode. We need to be the ones able to put the pressure on the opposition while we are the ones with the ball.

Having said that, a solid defence is the foundation of any successful international team. I can't think of the last international team that went on a prolonged period of success that couldn't defend whereas plenty of teams have had prolonged success even with a quite blunt attack.
 

Primary

The Rugby Forum Assistant
Here are some related products that The Rugby Forum members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to The Rugby Forum’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to The Rugby Forum discussions about these products.

 
 
Top