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[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] England vs Ireland (21/11/20)

Would Ireland the country benefit more from a more evenly spread of talent of the 21 year old + range?

The way I see it Leinster has amazing depth right?
It's 4th/5th choice players could most likely start in other provinces or even other leagues.
This is in part due to a great academy which is helped by a large population size.

So instead of having such a back log talent in one team would it not be better for Irish rugby to have them pushing others elsewhere?
I just look at Leinsters results without their Irish players and they still dick on everyone in the Pro 14.
 
Tigs Man said:
Would Ireland the country benefit more from a more evenly spread of talent of the 21 year old + range?

The way I see it Leinster has amazing depth right?
It's 4th/5th choice players could most likely start in other provinces or even other leagues.
This is in part due to a great academy which is helped by a large population size.

So instead of having such a back log talent in one team would it not be better for Irish rugby to have them pushing others elsewhere?
I just look at Leinsters results without their Irish players and they still dick on everyone in the Pro 14.
Click to expand...
It happens and could happen more often for sure but, prior to this season, Munster never really played their younger guys who were good enough and Ulster aren't at all this season. Most precedents are of it going wrong too. Carbery, Murphy, McGrath, O'Connors, Oliver, Loughman etc... all did it at various stages of their career and haven't kicked on to be international starters.

Numbers definitely play a part in Leinster's academy but the coaches at the top make it work, you didn't see it at all under our clubs' mutual best coach ever because he wouldn't give young lads a shot, he's also the only Leinster coach to fail to make a Pro 14 semi final as a result. Hopefully Munster go up a level and Ulster follow suit in picking young lads, then we can spread the talent and upskill lads to international standard far quicker.
 
I think the provincial system is honestly the most efficient system for letting talent through. There's relatively few players who slipped through the cracks here and went on to tear up trees elsewhere, especially in recent years. The cases I can think of (Tadhg Beirne, Chris Farrell) we got back anyway when they'd developed elsewhere. Players already move around with help from the IRFU to a very large extent, but you're asking a 21 year old to uproot their life and probably their studies to try make another teams grade, with plenty of examples of this not working for others, because maybe they're sadly not good enough, they get injured or they just don't land on their feet in the same way in a new environment with an entirely new set of coaches to impress.

I think its moot anyway, because there's a significant list of academy or recent academy graduate players across the provinces who I can point at and say they are good enough to be very good future internationals. The squad we played against England was a weird one in the sense it will be as weak a squad we field in a competitive fixture against T1 opponents in the next few years. Certain generational players like Sexton will always be hard to replace, but I'm very confident we are as talented as any country out there in terms of what we're producing.
 
ragerancher said:
Which makes it particularly baffling as you'd think Jones would be saying he wants leaders to step up yet the senior players all seem to be shirking making decisions on pitch as much as possible. Farrell blindly kicks and doesn't read the game, just follows the plan the the letter. Youngs the other day simply watching the maul get itself into a position where it was going to be turned over rather than taking it upon himself to get the ball out and try to salvage it when it was perfectly within his ability to do so. Itoje is the only "senior" who seems to also be leading, admittedly in a more limited role. I think the lack of leadership must rest with Jones, it seems he doesn't tolerate the team moving away from the plan which makes it impossible for a leader to take the game by the scruff of the neck if the plan is failing.

England's defence is pretty solid but the overly defensive mindset only works so long, eventually good sides will start to break you down and if you have no answer to it, you just sit there absorbing pressure waiting for mistakes. Ireland didn't put us under too much pressure and played into our hands but teams that are able to offload or get round the outside of us can absolutely shred our defence and then we go into headless chicken mode. We need to be the ones able to put the pressure on the opposition while we are the ones with the ball.

Having said that, a solid defence is the foundation of any successful international team. I can't think of the last international team that went on a prolonged period of success that couldn't defend whereas plenty of teams have had prolonged success even with a quite blunt attack.
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I do think it's a mistake to have Farrell as captain though. More to do with the responsibilities of the position than anything else, a goal kicking 10 just has far too much on their plate especially when their default setting is to take on the world when things aren't going their way. He's a great, stroppy lieutenant but shouldn't be the main man.

Always prefer a captain in the pack. I probably wouldn't burden Itoje with it. George might be a safe option now, Curry's the wild card Carling type longer term punt.
 
Tigs Man said:
Would Ireland the country benefit more from a more evenly spread of talent of the 21 year old + range?

The way I see it Leinster has amazing depth right?
It's 4th/5th choice players could most likely start in other provinces or even other leagues.
This is in part due to a great academy which is helped by a large population size.

So instead of having such a back log talent in one team would it not be better for Irish rugby to have them pushing others elsewhere?
I just look at Leinsters results without their Irish players and they still dick on everyone in the Pro 14.
Click to expand...
It's a valid question but I'd disagree. Leinster produce a lot of talent but there isn't really a backlog, the amount of players in the Ireland squad means we're basically playing a different team during international windows. Others have already explained in this thread so I won't drone on.

If anything the biggest issue with talent production over the last while has been the lack of it coming from Munster. The Munster academy hasn't produced an international starter since Peter O'Mahony/Simon Zebo. Things have thankfully changed somewhere in the decision making process though and Munster have started backing their young players this season. Ireland should benefit from it over the next few years. Ulster produce an decent amount of talent factoring in population etc and Connacht are never going to be a major talent source for the national team. The Leinster model is undeniably working very well at the moment and if Munster can follow suit (geography means that they'll never produce as much assuming the Leinster youth setup remains as well run as it currently is) we should be in a good place.

There is a place for interprovincial movement but its track record is inconsistent at best and too much of it risks diluting the identity of the provinces (something that's kinda already happened in Ulster to an extent). No one in Munster wants to go and support a team full of posh south Dublin private school lads at the end of the day.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
It happens and could happen more often for sure but, prior to this season, Munster never really played their younger guys who were good enough and Ulster aren't at all this season. Most precedents are of it going wrong too. Carbery, Murphy, McGrath, O'Connors, Oliver, Loughman etc... all did it at various stages of their career and haven't kicked on to be international starters.

Numbers definitely play a part in Leinster's academy but the coaches at the top make it work, you didn't see it at all under our clubs' mutual best coach ever because he wouldn't give young lads a shot, he's also the only Leinster coach to fail to make a Pro 14 semi final as a result. Hopefully Munster go up a level and Ulster follow suit in picking young lads, then we can spread the talent and upskill lads to international standard far quicker.
Click to expand...
Eh?

Ulster are playing plenty of youngsters. Lowry, Hume, (Stewart) Moore, Lyttle, both Rea brothers and Ethan McIlroy are all playing and are all homegrown players under 23. Tom O'Toole is just back from injury and will feature too.
 
BPM said:
Eh?

Ulster are playing plenty of youngsters. Lowry, Hume, (Stewart) Moore, Lyttle, both Rea brothers and Ethan McIlroy are all playing and are all homegrown players under 23. Tom O'Toole is just back from injury and will feature too.
Click to expand...
It's all either out of necessity of that they're the best players. It's no big deal picking Hume and Moore when there's every chance that they'll start Marshall and McCloskey who are, in my opinion, a worse pairing than the two young lads.

Why has Coetzee played all but one game and McCann not had a look? A genuine future international there who's more than ready to stand in for Coetzee against Zebre or the Dragons but hasn't. Stewart hasn't had a chance ahead of Cooney and Shanahan either.

I don't think playing your best players is going out of the way to develop talent when you have a few lads who could make an impact on the international game before long holding tackle bags. There's far two many seasoned pros in that Ulster squad with 6-7 pro 14 appearances blocking younger talent in my opinion.
 
Your comment was 'Ulster aren't at all' though, which clearly isn't factually correct.

Regardless of the reasoning, the fact is that all of those I mentioned are getting a decent amount of game time. Ulster also don't have the squad depth of Leinster and need to mix and match to be in genuine contention. I don't disagree that McCann and Stewart are due more of a chance, but when they're up against Coetzee and Cooney, it's not hard to see why those two haven't had the same chances other, perhaps less capable, players have.
 
BPM said:
Your comment was 'Ulster aren't at all' though, which clearly isn't factually correct.

Regardless of the reasoning, the fact is that all of those I mentioned are getting a decent amount of game time. Ulster also don't have the squad depth of Leinster and need to mix and match to be in genuine contention. I don't disagree that McCann and Stewart are due more of a chance, but when they're up against Coetzee and Cooney, it's not hard to see why those two haven't had the same chances other, perhaps less capable, players have.
Click to expand...
OK, I'll admit to exaggerating, its still dire selection though isn't it? Stewart is 3rd choice with 9 caps behind Cooney and Shanahan (59 Ulster caps!!!) compare that to the trio of Leinster lads in High O'Sullivan, Rowan Osbourne and Paddy Paterson behind McGrath and JGP who are comparable to Cooney have 28 caps between them. Meanwhile McCann can't get a look ahead of the two Reas. Especially when they've seen how well Hume, Balacoune and Moore have gone its a shame they've not given these two lads minutes when they have such high ceilings and are behind some passengers in the 23.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
OK, I'll admit to exaggerating, its still dire selection though isn't it? Stewart is 3rd choice with 9 caps behind Cooney and Shanahan (59 Ulster caps!!!) compare that to the trio of Leinster lads in High O'Sullivan, Rowan Osbourne and Paddy Paterson behind McGrath and JGP who are comparable to Cooney have 28 caps between them. Meanwhile McCann can't get a look ahead of the two Reas. Especially when they've seen how well Hume, Balacoune and Moore have gone its a shame they've not given these two lads minutes when they have such high ceilings and are behind some passengers in the 23.
Click to expand...

Slight tangent...have you seen or heard how John McKee is doing in the Leinster academy set up?...he went to my sons school, like Tom O'Toole and i would have preferred he stayed at Ulster but went down there. Was great watching them develop every week as school boy players....
 
OhEastBelfast said:
Slight tangent...have you seen or heard how John McKee is doing in the Leinster academy set up?...he went to my sons school, like Tom O'Toole and i would have preferred he stayed at Ulster but went down there. Was great watching them develop every week as school boy players....
Click to expand...
He got an academy spot which is fairly huge but definitely faces very stiff competition from Kelleher and Dan Shanahan. I trained with him for a year at club level, he was always a 1sts or 20's player while I did well to make the 2nds so I never played with him but from my understanding Ulster wanted him to play prop whereas Leinster offered him a spot as a hooker which was a key factor in his decision. He probably has about 12 months to break into Pro 14 sides and if not I wouldn't be surprised to see him back in Ulster. Serious talent though and from a quick google search it looks like he's adding the size he lacked as a 18/19 year old.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
He got an academy spot which is fairly huge but definitely faces very stiff competition from Kelleher and Dan Shanahan. I trained with him for a year at club level, he was always a 1sts or 20's player while I did well to make the 2nds so I never played with him but from my understanding Ulster wanted him to play prop whereas Leinster offered him a spot as a hooker which was a key factor in his decision. He probably has about 12 months to break into Pro 14 sides and if not I wouldn't be surprised to see him back in Ulster. Serious talent though and from a quick google search it looks like he's adding the size he lacked as a 18/19 year old.
Click to expand...

Yeah, he played hooker for school and was a good captain.....indeed, he seems to have added some weight...but i never thought he was 6 foot tall!

Hope he can throw the ball straight :)
 
Tigs Man said:
Would Ireland the country benefit more from a more evenly spread of talent of the 21 year old + range?

The way I see it Leinster has amazing depth right?
It's 4th/5th choice players could most likely start in other provinces or even other leagues.
This is in part due to a great academy which is helped by a large population size.

So instead of having such a back log talent in one team would it not be better for Irish rugby to have them pushing others elsewhere?
I just look at Leinsters results without their Irish players and they still dick on everyone in the Pro 14.
Click to expand...

Checking Ulster's squad on Wikipedia, the following are ex-Leinster players:
  • Jack McGrath
  • Marty Moore
  • Jordi Murphy
  • John Cooney
  • Ian Madigan
And the following are Leinstermen, but never actually played for Leinster, although some of them were in their underage teams:
  • Eric O'Sullivan (Dublin)
  • Tom O'Toole (Drogheda)
  • Alan O'Connor (Dublin)
  • David O'Connor (Dublin)
  • Greg Jones (Dublin)
  • Nick Timoney (Dublin)
  • Dave Shanahan (Dublin)
So what you're suggesting is already happening.
 
paddybrown said:
Checking Ulster's squad on Wikipedia, the following are ex-Leinster players:
  • Jack McGrath
  • Marty Moore
  • Jordi Murphy
  • John Cooney
  • Ian Madigan
And the following are Leinstermen, but never actually played for Leinster, although some of them were in their underage teams:
  • Eric O'Sullivan (Dublin)
  • Tom O'Toole (Drogheda)
  • Alan O'Connor (Dublin)
  • David O'Connor (Dublin)
  • Greg Jones (Dublin)
  • Nick Timoney (Dublin)
  • Dave Shanahan (Dublin)
So what you're suggesting is already happening.
Click to expand...
I wouldnt really call O'Toole a Leinster man....grew up in Aus and came back to go to school at Campbell from where he went straight to Ulster
 
OhEastBelfast said:
I wouldnt really call O'Toole a Leinster man....grew up in Aus and came back to go to school at Campbell from where he went straight to Ulster
Click to expand...
Drogheda man originally wasn't he? And then Aus and then Ulster? (Could be wrong here but that's how I understand it).

Calling him a Leinster man especially in a rugby context is probably a bit off.
 
Point. And Greg Jones, Nick Timoney and Dave Shanahan came through the Ulster academy, But the other provinces are mopping up some of Leinster's superfluous players as Tigs Man suggested.
 

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