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[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] Ireland vs Wales (13/11/20)

Oliver Madden

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Don’t know about other forum members but i thought that game was boring. Ireland won comfortably but Wales were dreadful. That’s the worst Welsh team since 2003 I think. They were awful. Just can’t get up for this tournament at all. I enjoy international rugby but it’s hard to get really into it when you’ve played the same teams earlier in the year.
 

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Call it as it was a heap of crap from both teams. Lowe did well and stood up but was not tested against Tier 1 teams.
JGP had fine game at 9 but I stand by what I said he is a journeyman 9 who impacts off bench but will not be a starter vs big teams if we want to win. And if he does start then I accept that too as he has played better than Murray which says more about state of our 9s.
Billy Burns actually looked good in his time on the field some lovely passes off both hands but again shows how Wales are awful.
Hugo was fine at 15. Hopefully he gets another gallop there next week and Stockdale if he returns goes to where he is best.
POM is not in the future but was superb tonight and showed why Farrell needs him. The lineout needs him. And well he still has a serious role to play as a senior squad player but not always on the field.
Doris was the real gem tonight and well [email protected] and [email protected] should be tried too. Backrow is in serious shape now though.
Frontrow was good but well Byrne had few errors when coming on. Porter improving again, Bealham was good when coming on. Hookers are still iffy but the best there.

We beat a shite team. Even next week I would not be 1 bit surprised if we beat England as this is jus t a flat feeling competition and anything could happen. Hard to tell where we are at really.
Agree with all of this. Ed Byrne is a stopgap to be honest but there aren't really any better options and he's done an incredible amount of work to get there. Bealham is doing well and Porter is in good from. Worth saying Kelleher made 13 tackles and was a noticeable step up around the park. Interested to see if we persist with him next week. Risk lineout wise with POM probably not starting. Thought Josh was pretty poor. Doris is a peach of a player. Prefer him at 8. CJ at 6 for next week. Billy looked decent but I'd much prefer Ross Byrne for next week, has a track record of winning big games as opposed to Burns who loses them. At centre I thought Farrell was decent, prefer him to Henshaw at 13. Conway will do well to keep his place for next week.

I'm more optimistic than some here about the direction of the team, I think we've improved even if we're not good enough to beat England. Once baby Byrne, Healy, Casey, Baird and Baloucoune make the step up we'll be in a good place. Jury is out on Farrell but I'm willing to wait until at least the end of the next 6N to judge, even if England hammer us next week. Catt is doing a good job based off the evidence so far.

Also glad we started to kick penalties instead of going for lineouts. We don't execute well enough right now and well kicking penalties is the way to win games of rugby.
 
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The Alpha Bro

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Billy looked decent but I'd much prefer Ross Byrne for next week, has a track record of winning big games as opposed to Burns who loses them.
I don't agree with this at all. Winning big games for Ster is easy, we're the best squad in Europe, Ulster are muck. Ross just doesn't have it at this level, too slow and weak, a lanky, slower and less talented George Ford. If we want to win next week we need divine intervention. if we want to pick the best available 10, pray Sexton is fit. If we want to pick the player who'll gain most from the experience and show up positively get Harry in there.

As is, it'll probably be Ross or Billy, flip a coin to see which poor ******* is on the end of a 20 point beating.
 

ragerancher

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I don't agree with this at all. Winning big games for Ster is easy, we're the best squad in Europe

Ster being Leinster, Munster, Ulster so 75% chance of it being the correct Irish team. I like those odds.
 

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I don't agree with this at all. Winning big games for Ster is easy, we're the best squad in Europe, Ulster are muck. Ross just doesn't have it at this level, too slow and weak, a lanky, slower and less talented George Ford. If we want to win next week we need divine intervention. if we want to pick the best available 10, pray Sexton is fit. If we want to pick the player who'll gain most from the experience and show up positively get Harry in there.

As is, it'll probably be Ross or Billy, flip a coin to see which poor ******* is on the end of a 20 point beating.
Time for our annual disagreement.

I'll agree that Ross doesn't really have the ability that we need long term but he does have the right attitude and mindset. Having him at 10 makes you far more likely to win a close game. Sure it's easier playing for us but he's a big part of the reason we've got over the line more than a few times. Every Leinster player gets the "it's easier playing for Leinster" thing thrown at them but at some point you have to credit guys for being the reason Leinster are good and not the other way round. Billy doesn't have the same stuff, Pro14 final wasn't much of a game and we'd have won anyway with the 10s reversed but it's hard to imagine Ross throwing the intercept that killed the game.

We're not going to beat England unless we have a great game/they have an awful one (latter is more likely). If Sexton isn't fit we've got even less hope. But we're far more likely to win with Ross than Burns, who'll have one or two nice passes but ultimately isn't going to do it.

I do think Ross Byrne will probably go down as a guy who was great when needed for Leinster, and whose weaknesses were exposed at international level. But we haven't actually seen enough of him in green to make that judgement. He's worth a shot at least, given that there's no one there to bridge the gap between Sexton and the young guys.

Don't think Harry Byrne is ready yet in all honestly and throwing him in against England is too big a risk for his confidence. Let him get some game time with a first choice Leinster team (who'll do a much better job of protecting him than Ireland would) and hopefully get him involved for next year's Six Nations.

*angry Exeter noises*
Discussion for another thread but I do think we have the better overall squad, although we'd probably lose if the teams played tomorrow (not least because our entire team just played tonight).
 

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I think its enough to say that Irish rugby fans are never happy.

Lastnight we played well in a lot if areas and were sloppy in others, but its worth noting there were untried combinations all over the park. Regardless there is definitely cause for optimism.
Front row: overall had a good showing. Dynamic enough is the loose and dominating in the scrum. Porter bossed both Welsh LHPs and on the occasions he was penalised it was done so incorrectly. Healy was his usual self around the place and Kelleher was decent considering he's coming back from injury.
Second rows: Roux will never set the world alight but he carried ball and tackled and did what he did competently. Ryan still seems to be stuck a bit in Lockdown. Bit more on the pace than he was previously this year but importantly it looked like he may have been making the calls at penalty time which is a good hit put looking at the captaincy going forward.
Back row: VDF was uncharacteristically quiet by his own standards, which are quite high admittedly but still room for improvement. POM was good at the lineout and took the armband for official purposes after Sexton left but I still feel that he's a guy that doesn't pit the future, and not just because of age. He is liable to give away penalties and lacks that bit if control around the park. Doris was immense and I think he'll nail on the RWC 8 jersey if he keeps going this way.
Half backs: Much hate from certain quarters for both coming into the game but JGP was a breath of fresh air. Quick ball off the base allowed us to attack broken defence and with the talent available this should be the way forward. There were shades of Leinstertainment until Sexton went off which may please or diplease some. Sexton looks a battered war horse now. Still world class on his day but Farrell needs to look at giving real gametime to other guys now. There is no heir apperant and that could be a big problem. Murray played better at 10 than he has at 9 in 2 years but despite calls for him to play there next week I feel that would be a pathetic selection.
Centres looked good with ball in hand and defensively they were solid. Henshaw and Farrell present the perfect mix of skill and bulk together.
Back 3: James Lowe as expected comfortable at the level and really took to international rugby. You could see what it meant to him to score at the end. Conway had a few breaks but I feel his better position is probably full back, but with Larmour back he could get pushed to the bench. Keenan didn't have a whole lot to do as Wales were mostly just kicking the ball to him to run back but he did well enough. Better option on the wing I think.

Subs: All made a positive impact. Burns kept it all ticking, Ed Byrne is probably only a 15min relief player but a decent option for that. Bealham looked good, Beirne and Connors both showed their quality and marked AWJs 150th cap with a bang...literally. Murrays cameo at 10 was just that. Playing a beaten team who offered little he was in the armchair but still, he kicked his goals. Keith Earls to me looks like a guy who knows he's not going to contribute a lot of the field. I wouldn't be overly surprised to see him retire from international duty at the end of this season.

Looking forward to Twickenham I think we should look at playing the firsts and really going for it. Get the freshed faced winners out there.
My team for Twickenham:

Healy
Kelleher
Porter
Beirne
Ryan
Stander
Connors
Doris
JGP
Byrne
Keenan
Farrell
Henshaw
Lowe
Conway

PS: did anyone else think Poite may have been asleep in the TMO box??
 

The Alpha Bro

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Time for our annual disagreement.

I'll agree that Ross doesn't really have the ability that we need long term but he does have the right attitude and mindset. Having him at 10 makes you far more likely to win a close game. Sure it's easier playing for us but he's a big part of the reason we've got over the line more than a few times. Every Leinster player gets the "it's easier playing for Leinster" thing thrown at them but at some point you have to credit guys for being the reason Leinster are good and not the other way round. Billy doesn't have the same stuff, Pro14 final wasn't much of a game and we'd have won anyway with the 10s reversed but it's hard to imagine Ross throwing the intercept that killed the game.

We're not going to beat England unless we have a great game/they have an awful one (latter is more likely). If Sexton isn't fit we've got even less hope. But we're far more likely to win with Ross than Burns, who'll have one or two nice passes but ultimately isn't going to do it.

I do think Ross Byrne will probably go down as a guy who was great when needed for Leinster, and whose weaknesses were exposed at international level. But we haven't actually seen enough of him in green to make that judgement. He's worth a shot at least, given that there's no one there to bridge the gap between Sexton and the young guys.

Don't think Harry Byrne is ready yet in all honestly and throwing him in against England is too big a risk for his confidence. Let him get some game time with a first choice Leinster team (who'll do a much better job of protecting him than Ireland would) and hopefully get him involved for next year's Six Nations.


Discussion for another thread but I do think we have the better overall squad, although we'd probably lose if the teams played tomorrow (not least because our entire team just played tonight).
Fair enough, I really don't think there's much between if anything between them though. Ross really lacks the athleticism to be anything at international level and to be honest I wouldn't back him to bring a Heino back to Leinster. I'd never throw Harry Byrne in next week, I think he could do well at international level but we need to give him time/use magic powers to get Murray back to his 2016/2018 form before it's an option.

I don't think I'll ever buse the "but he's doing it for Leinster" argument again but I just think it fits here and with Luke McGrath too. At the end of the day I think it's extremely marginal who the better option is but I reckon if goal kicking wasn't a factor I'd want to see Billy, as is I'm not excited at all by either and don't think it'll make much if any difference. Ross has huge balls but I've never been convinced he's anything but a good second choice for Leinster.

*angry Exeter noises*
Screenshot_20201114_081144_com.android.chrome.jpg


Just doing the maths
 

munstermuffin

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To be fair Billy Burns showed up great last night and earned a start next day. Neither are the answer long term so if it between them on form for now then it Billy B.
 

Tigs Man

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So looking at the NZ score
It all makes sense now Pivac is doing a Hansen, aiming for that 33% win ratio with Wales then will come in to replace Foster.
 

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Not even the fact I was allowed back in a pub and the many pints I had during the game made it any better on Friday. I expected a bad performance but I was still a bit surprised how bad it actually was. Pre lockdown 6 nations they weren't great but you could see some encouraging signs of at least how they wanted to play under Privac. I have no idea what Welsh based players were doing during lockdown but since coming back they can't even do basic things, let alone try and execute a something that remotely looks like a game plan. You can't really pin point where it's going wrong as it's everything. Line out, scrum, defence, ball retention, getting over the gain line.
 

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Not even the fact I was allowed back in a pub and the many pints I had during the game made it any better on Friday. I expected a bad performance but I was still a bit surprised how bad it actually was. Pre lockdown 6 nations they weren't great but you could see some encouraging signs of at least how they wanted to play under Privac. I have no idea what Welsh based players were doing during lockdown but since coming back they can't even do basic things, let alone try and execute a something that remotely looks like a game plan. You can't really pin point where it's going wrong as it's everything. Line out, scrum, defence, ball retention, getting over the gain line.

I couldn't pick a team to do any better. It will be the easiest thing in the world to look at the coach because it distracts from the root causes. The performances are a result of the structures, it's a reflection of our development system, our professional tier, and its interaction with the grassroots. The Welsh international team overperformed for a decade, instead of using this good fortune that financially carried the game in Wales, they chose to believe that it would just continue by funding the top of the structure. the WRU is a self-serving organization it could take a decade to really change things, in all probability, it will take a decade to realize things need to be changed.
 

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I couldn't pick a team to do any better. It will be the easiest thing in the world to look at the coach because it distracts from the root causes. The performances are a result of the structures, it's a reflection of our development system, our professional tier, and its interaction with the grassroots. The Welsh international team overperformed for a decade, instead of using this good fortune that financially carried the game in Wales, they chose to believe that it would just continue by funding the top of the structure. the WRU is a self-serving organization it could take a decade to really change things, in all probability, it will take a decade to realize things need to be changed.
In the last while Ireland and Wales have had roughly equal U20 teams but that talent seems to be harnessed far better by the provinces. The standard of the Welsh regions is starting to catch up with the national team I think. The talent is definitely there but change is needed to the structures and organisation to properly compete.
 

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