[2020 Autumn Nations Cup] Wales vs England (28/11/20)

[Ragey Erasmus]

By the letter of the law someone standing stationary will be at fault if a player jumps into them catching the ball and then collides with them. If the static player reacts in any way to the player jumping at the (such as attempting to catch them, duck etc) they are deemed to be at fault. It's also not a case of jumping into the tackle as it is fair Biggar jumped to catch the ball, it's just the law should change so a player who is not moving cannot be held accountable for any collisions that occur. It looked less like a tackle and more Underhill catching Bigger as he collides with him and both going to ground, which is likely safer and fairer than trying to get out of the way.

 

[Reiser99]

By the letter of the law someone standing stationary will be at fault if a player jumps into them catching the ball and then collides with them. If the static player reacts in any way to the player jumping at the (such as attempting to catch them, duck etc) they are deemed to be at fault. It's also not a case of jumping into the tackle as it is fair Biggar jumped to catch the ball, it's just the law should change so a player who is not moving cannot be held accountable for any collisions that occur. It looked less like a tackle and more Underhill catching Bigger as he collides with him and both going to ground, which is likely safer and fairer than trying to get out of the way.

As others have mentioned there is also the way he leads with his knee. Issue is though, if WRU gives refs more discretion to interpret then it leads to more inconsistency and more complaints by fans. On the other hand you can be too consistent and ignore any mitigating circumstances. Not saying which is right, but I can see it as almost damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

As others have mentioned there is also the way he leads with his knee. Issue is though, if WRU gives refs more discretion to interpret then it leads to more inconsistency and more complaints by fans. On the other hand you can be too consistent and ignore any mitigating circumstances. Not saying which is right, but I can see it as almost damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Although they may wish it is true, I don't think the WRU get to decide what refs do

 

[Brandon2k]

They were the right decisions. Bigger was tackled in the air and the scrum penalties were very much in Englands favour

Biggar may have been tackled in the air but the ref was all over the place and made the classic football move of smoothing out a decision after allowing Biggar's earlier intentional (golf swing) knock on (when allegedly 'attempting' to charge down the ball) which led to a Welsh try and more importantly, Biggar staying on the pitch.

 

[Brandon2k]

Hill roughing up AWJ there, lovely to see.

AWJ? Alun 'Whinge' Owens ? . Didnt respect the ref yesterday at all - a long way from the sympathy tears in his interview prior to last year's WC semi-final

 

[klitarris]

Contrary to what seems like popular opinion, I quite enjoyed the game on Saturday. I thought England were a slight step up from what we saw against Ireland in terms of their attacking play and I suspect a lot of that has to do with Ford. Maybe it is because everyone was so surprised by the line breaks, but the issue was with continuing after the break rather than creating the break itself. It was good to see people running at shoulders, changing the point of attack etc. I'd be more worried if we still weren't creating these opportunities. Ford looked a bit rusty too, some moments of magic counteracted by some shockers too. Farrell looked much better at 12. Daly did pretty well at 15 (and I'm not normally a fan of him there), and while JJ has done sufficiently well on the wing, Watson was good when he came on and will only get better with match practice. Overall, England's backs has some brilliant moments but were unable to maintain them consistently - a bit like Ford actually!

In the forwards, a lot of people (myself included) expected Wales to get steamrollered. That they didn't is testimony to how well Wales fronted up. They they managed to mostly contain our forwards without the likes of Tipuric, Navidi etc shows that the future is probably pretty bright for them. A lot has been said about AWJ being ineffective these days, so I'm not going to say anything else other than that I agree with that. If he captains the Lions I will be peeved!

Overall, I the forwards England were pretty efficient; in the backs they were much better than previous but pretty inefficient.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Up front we're good, albeit seldom as dominant as many people suggest.

Slade's try is precisely what I want to see from our pack. Itoje to Underhill running a great line onto a rampaging Sinckler. Forwards were eventually contained, but the space had been made for the backs.

The difference was Underhill's smart line and with ever tighter defences the ability to pick an angle like that rather than just a smash away becomes ever more important. That is this pack's main shortcoming......if we can make those initial line breaks and get our pack feeding off them we will look a lot more potent

And the best in the country at that is Dombrandt. His skills really are our missing link.

He doesn't make a billion tackles per match? So what? Itoje and the kamikaze kids have got that covered.

He's not the finished article and hasn't been a pro long? No-one comes to the international game fully formed. But he's got a natural rugby brain that no amount of time in the gym can buy.

Binny used to bring that go forward and while he's had a slight uptick in form he looks more like Mr Rock-Solid rather than Mr Game-Breaker.

I like Earl and Simmonds but they both look more like subs to pick up the pace.

Just a shame Binny got all the air time in this tournament.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Up front we're good, albeit seldom as dominant as many people suggest.

Slade's try is precisely what I want to see from our pack. Itoje to Underhill running a great line onto a rampaging Sinckler. Forwards were eventually contained, but the space had been made for the backs.

The difference was Underhill's smart line and with ever tighter defences the ability to pick an angle like that rather than just a smash away becomes ever more important. That is this pack's main shortcoming......if we can make those initial line breaks and get our pack feeding off them we will look a lot more potent

And the best in the country at that is Dombrandt. His skills really are our missing link.

He doesn't make a billion tackles per match? So what? Itoje and the kamikaze kids have got that covered.

He's not the finished article and hasn't been a pro long? No-one comes to the international game fully formed. But he's got a natural rugby brain that no amount of time in the gym can buy.

Binny used to bring that go forward and while he's had a slight uptick in form he looks more like Mr Rock-Solid rather than Mr Game-Breaker.

I like Earl and Simmonds but they both look more like subs to pick up the pace.

Just a shame Binny got all the air time in this tournament.

TBH I don't think Billy V is picked for his ability to create anything any more. I think Jones sees an 8 as a solid lump who will ensure you don't go backwards rather than a means to go forwards now. Billy V offers little in attack but rarely gets knocked backwards when running into traffic and simply does loads of tackles. I think that's where all the other English 8's fall short in EJ's books, regardless of how justified that view is. Simmonds, Dombrandt and Mercer all run much more cutting lines than Billy V and offer tons more dynamism but probably don't get through the sheer number of tackles and kick returns Billy V does.

 

[BPM]

Up front we're good, albeit seldom as dominant as many people suggest.

Slade's try is precisely what I want to see from our pack. Itoje to Underhill running a great line onto a rampaging Sinckler. Forwards were eventually contained, but the space had been made for the backs.

The difference was Underhill's smart line and with ever tighter defences the ability to pick an angle like that rather than just a smash away becomes ever more important. That is this pack's main shortcoming......if we can make those initial line breaks and get our pack feeding off them we will look a lot more potent

And the best in the country at that is Dombrandt. His skills really are our missing link.

He doesn't make a billion tackles per match? So what? Itoje and the kamikaze kids have got that covered.

He's not the finished article and hasn't been a pro long? No-one comes to the international game fully formed. But he's got a natural rugby brain that no amount of time in the gym can buy.

Binny used to bring that go forward and while he's had a slight uptick in form he looks more like Mr Rock-Solid rather than Mr Game-Breaker.

I like Earl and Simmonds but they both look more like subs to pick up the pace.

Just a shame Binny got all the air time in this tournament.

As a Quins STH until recently, I can tell you with some confidence that Dombrandt is not ready for test rugby.

I agree about the 'natural rugby brain', but he's too far off what's required in other areas and I'd be worried about gambling on him now impacting his future prospects. He needs more time to figure out how to ally his natural talent with better work rate and playing in a more defined role. Let's face it, it's very unlikely a test coach is going to say 'just to out there and do your thing'.

It's possible he could take to test rugby like a duck to water, but if he doesn't, I doubt he'd be given much/if any time to work his way up to it. Being picked and quickly discarded rarely leads to good test careers.

Using this season as an example, he's had one anonymous game followed by a good one. It's a small sample size, but it's not far off what we normally get from him and he needs to show he can be more consistently influential to be in the running for a test chance IMO.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As a Quins STH until recently, I can tell you with some confidence that Dombrandt is not ready for test rugby.

I agree about the 'natural rugby brain', but he's too far off what's required in other areas and I'd be worried about gambling on him now impacting his future prospects. He needs more time to figure out how to ally his natural talent with better work rate and playing in a more defined role. Let's face it, it's very unlikely a test coach is going to say 'just to out there and do your thing'.

It's possible he could take to test rugby like a duck to water, but if he doesn't, I doubt he'd be given much/if any time to work his way up to it. Being picked and quickly discarded rarely leads to good test careers.

Using this season as an example, he's had one anonymous game followed by a good one. It's a small sample size, but it's not far off what we normally get from him and he needs to show he can be more consistently influential to be in the running for a test chance IMO.

Not a dig at you, but the work rate thing really annoys me. There's always got to be a balance between perspiration and inspiration and right now we've got far too much of the former and not enough of the latter. And even those 'lazier' players seldom just stand around doing little.

Then there's context. Quins generally have a modest pack. I said in another post a while back that he'd probably look consistently better if he was in the Chiefs pack. And right now with the experience of the rest of the Eng pack it would be about the softest landing into the international game he could hope for.

My big fear is that he, and others, won't get a look in until the data tells Jones that they are "ready".

At the very least he should have had some game time this Autumn so that they could have had a proper look at him and how he gelled with others in games. They could have then sent him back to Quins with some useful experience and proper work ons if they didn't think he was up to scratch.

Jones is forever going on about strength in depth, but at 8 he's learned nothing new about Binny or anyone else this Autumn when he had a golden chance to do so.

 

[BrokenWing]

And the best in the country at that is Dombrandt. His skills really are our missing link.

I thought it was crazy that he was named in one squad and never got any time, then was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Reiser99]

I thought it was crazy that he was named in one squad and never got any time, then was nowhere to be seen.

To be fair to EJ, he's certainly called up and looked at lots of players, but he seems to have quite strict criteria for what he wants in a player and many don't fit what he wants.

 

[BPM]

Dombrandt has been in and out for a while. He wasn't far off making the cut for the RWC squad and has generally been in wider squads. It's not as though he has been ignored.

I don't want the instinctive side of his game to be coached out of him and I'm not suggesting we turn him in to something he's not, but if you think that you can carry a player with a lower work rate in Tier 1 test rugby, I think you're sorely mistaken.

He is still adapting to the change from BUCS rugby to the pro game. He didn't have the same experience of going through an academy as most pros and while that brings some benefits, it also means that he's still finding his way to some extent.

The talent is there, but as I said earlier, I worry that picking him now could be a real 50/50 result. It could be the making of him or it could have the opposite effect and I feel like that's an unnecessary risk when another season of development still allows him plenty of time to break in to the squad for 2023.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I saw Billy get smashed back in the tackle on most of his carries. He does really recycle well but he does make ground any more.

 

[Which Tyler]

Player Cam: Sam Underhill versus Wales

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be fair to EJ, he's certainly called up and looked at lots of players, but he seems to have quite strict criteria for what he wants in a player and many don't fit what he wants.

Yes, I suppose Barbeary fits his non-negotiable "set piece skills don't matter for front rowers" criterion quite nicely.

 

[Mikey12]

I think EJ could hurt English rugby, maybe it's what you want but it's not exciting to watch. Forward dominance only works until you come up against a team that does it better, like South Africa at the World Cup.
Wales have been poor so far because they don't yet know how to implement Pivacs game plan, while also coping with the oppositions game plan. This game was all muscle memory for them. Front up be strong in defence, England with a more attacking approach would have put 50 points on us easily but, they kicked away possession for territorial advantage in reality you gifted us a more acceptable score line. The Gatland way has permeated Welsh rugby and I'm sorry to say it's been a slow death because of it. He made us all about strong defence and attack without the ball in hand. As a result we never looked like we got out of second gear in attack. Win by sucking the life out of the opposition, sound familiar England? It will not be a quick fix for Wales but Pivac needs to trust in his approach it will bring dividend in the end but, we need to work really hand on our handling skills it's been woeful across the field this autumn.