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[2020 RC/Tri Nations] Round 3: Argentina V New Zealand (14/11/2020)

Umaga's Witness

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@TRF_heineken were you going to make the official thread? Sorry for making one prematurely but teams have already been named so we need a space to discuss. Feel free to delete this one or merge or whatever, sorry if that’s a pain.

All blacks


1. Joe Moody (48)

2. Dane Coles (72)

3. Tyrel Lomax (4)

4. Patrick Tuipulotu (33)

5. Samuel Whitelock (120)

6. Shannon Frizell (12)

7. Sam Cane (72) - captain

8. Ardie Savea (47)

9. Aaron Smith (95)

10. Richie Mo’unga (20)

11. Caleb Clarke (3)

12. Jack Goodhue (16)

13. Anton Lienert-Brown (47)

14. Jordie Barrett (21)

15. Beauden Barrett (86)



16. Codie Taylor (54)

17. Alex Hodgman (3)

18. Nepo Laulala (27)

19. Tupou Vaa’i (3)

20. Hoskins Sotutu (3)

21. Brad Weber (6)

22. Rieko Ioane (32)

23. Damian McKenzie (26)



so it seems the all black selectors have decided to go with, or very close to, what they see as their top team. Seems they got scared after losing last week.

while I absolutely do not want to lose to Argentina for the first time, I feel like if we are going to give fringe players some opportunities then this is the game to do it. The next game will be against a pumas side that has two games under their belt, so will be much harder I would think.

I think they have gone with the philosophy that because the pumas are an unknown quantity, play our best team against them, then if we win comfortably and so do the wallabies the week after, then we can make a few changes to our side without risking defeat. But if this game is close, then maybe we stick with our top team in the next match. Problem there is you might end up not giving players opportunities.

be brave and assume we will win even with a few tweaks to the team. We actually may be less likely to win with our top team as they might expect to win hence not play as hard.

I also prefer if you are to give players opportunities don’t do it in your last test if the year, I like the last test to have the top team, for the previous tests to have been partly about working out who the best team is. But oh well.

I think when selection isn’t clear then players should be given opportunities. They have gone back to their preferred 15, but are they sure it’s actually the best 15? It might well be, but doesn’t Laumape deserve another chance? Or Jordie at fullback? Or will Jordan on the wing? (Granted he might still be suffering from concussion). Or Reece? Sotutu a start at 8?

cane has been bashed around and visibly dazed in more than one match, shouldnt he be looked after by giving him a Rest?
 
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Umaga's Witness

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1. Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 2. Julian Montoya, 3. Francisco Gómez-Kodela, 4. Guido Petti, 5. Matias Alemanno, 6. Pablo Matera (C), 7. Marcos Kremer, 8. Rodrigo Bruni, 9. Tomas Cubelli, 10. Nicolas Sánchez, 11. Juan Imhoff, 12. Santiago Chocobares*, 13. Matias Orlando, 14. Bautista Delguy, 15. Santiago Carreras.
Replacements: 16. Facundo Bosch, 17. Mayco Vivas, 18. Santiago Medrano, 19. Santiago Grondona*, 20. Tomas Lezana, 21. Gonzalo Bertranou, 22. Lucio Cinti*, 23. Santiago Cordero.*Denotes new cap
 

Kiwiwomble

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just dont get it, ask almost anyone and they'll say it can take a couple of games to get your eye in, im a Frizell fan but Akira was playing well and the argies are exactly the type of team we would normally blood someone against...good, but not the boks or something

give him another shot, hell, even off the bench, frizell could cover lock

We once again have three players that can play 10 and three that can play 15...not really balanced is it?
 

Alex Anghel

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Again, Foster's selections are shocking, the guy seems to be more interested in the immediate result rather than eyeing for the future. These types of games are the most appropriate for blooding/grooming players.

Why make a whole change in a dead rubber and one week later bring the team that you consider is your first (by dismissing most of the previous week's team's players), against a squad that hasn't been played an international game in more than a year? Will the coaching panel be more confident if the ABs will blow Argies off the park?

Why sticking with BB at 15, when it's obvious that by 2023 he won't be in his prime anymore, either at 10 or at fullback?

Why persisting with JB on the wing, when there's other better options to fill that spot?

If you believe that Ardie is the best 8 and cemented Cane as your skipper at 7, then the whole development of players like Akira Ioane, Dalton Papal'ii, Hoskins Sotutu, Cullen Grace or Luke Jacobson will be negatively impacted, although they are still young enough to be the future.

What's the point of giving the bench players only a couple of minutes at the end of games? More precisely, what's the catch in sending Brad Weber on in the 78th minute or Cullen Grace in the 79th?

Sometimes I wonder if Foster hasn't been perhaps a bit lucky to have this shortened season, a normal one might have seen him dismissed one year in his contract.

Would love to see NZ's approach to the issues raised above.
 
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Oliver Madden

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Having seen both teams this could be a bit closer than I originally thought. Argentina could be dangerous outsiders here. I’m surprised Foster hasn’t tried a few new combinations. I would have definitely started Sotutu this week. He played well in Sydney. Don’t understand this sudden AB’s penchant for playing loads of players in the backline out of position, it’s weird. I think the coaches are trying to put the best 15 players on the Park, but the best 15 players don’t always make the best team.
 

rugbeian_usa

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I want Argentina to win because they're the underdog.
 

Umaga's Witness

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This team got a second chance after the draw in the first game which could just as easily have been a loss. Why does the team from last week not deserve a second chance? A lot of those were players just as deserving of playing, or playing in that position, as the game 1 team. If the loss was Proof they are crap, then the team picked this week, which drew in week 1, is also crap.

I would have Gone with something like:
Same front row and locks, including reserves, as they chose This week except put aumua on the bench.
The blues loose forwards of Akira, papalii, sotutu. They won’t be rusty because they’ve played together for the blues. Savea in the bench (grace can get a go next game).
Same backs as last week except Weber starting, Jordan starting instead of Ione (or if Jordan is unavailable due to concussion then bring back Clarke), Smith, mounga, and goodhue on the bench.
 

Umaga's Witness

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Having seen both teams this could be a bit closer than I originally thought. Argentina could be dangerous outsiders here. I’m surprised Foster hasn’t tried a few new combinations. I would have definitely started Sotutu this week. He played well in Sydney. Don’t understand this sudden AB’s penchant for playing loads of players in the backline out of position, it’s weird. I think the coaches are trying to put the best 15 players on the Park, but the best 15 players don’t always make the best team.
Out of interest, why do you think it will be close? This is basically the same all blacks starting team as in Bledisloe 2 and 3, both very easy victories, the same except Whitelock wasn’t there in game 2, savea and moody weren’t there in game 3, and ofa isn’t there this time but was in both game 2 and 3. So do you think the wallabies were just crap, or is there some other reason like, perhaps, the team might be too complacent?
 

Oliver Madden

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Out of interest, why do you think it will be close? This is basically the same all blacks starting team as in Bledisloe 2 and 3, both very easy victories, the same except Whitelock wasn’t there in game 2, savea and moody weren’t there in game 3, and ofa isn’t there this time but was in both game 2 and 3. So do you think the wallabies were just crap, or is there some other reason like, perhaps, the team might be too complacent?
By close I meant under 14 points. It’s all relative with the All Blacks. Don’t think it will be a one score game but I don’t think it will be an annihilation. Just think Argentina will come out fast in their first game of the year like the Wallabies did in Bledisloe One. Now of course the AB’s have had 4 games under their belts which is an undoubted advantage. Sometimes when you’ve made a lot of changes it can disrupt the rhythm even when the first team is put back together. It can take time to get into the groove again. I could be wrong and the All Blacks could wallop them but it’s a pretty decent Argentine team on paper, I think they can keep competitive in this one. I expect one of those games where the AB’s never look like losing but maybe don’t totally pull away. Maybe 32-18 or something like that.
 

Umaga's Witness

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By close I meant under 14 points. It’s all relative with the All Blacks. Don’t think it will be a one score game but I don’t think it will be an annihilation. Just think Argentina will come out fast in their first game of the year like the Wallabies did in Bledisloe One. Now of course the AB’s have had 4 games under their belts which is an undoubted advantage. Sometimes when you’ve made a lot of changes it can disrupt the rhythm even when the first team is put back together. It can take time to get into the groove again. I could be wrong and the All Blacks could wallop them but it’s a pretty decent Argentine team on paper, I think they can keep competitive in this one. I expect one of those games where the AB’s never look like losing but maybe don’t totally pull away. Maybe 32-18 or something like that.
“One of those games that the all blacks never look like losing but don’t pull away.“ . When you said that I thought, That sounds like a typical All blacks pumas match, although the all blacks tend to score a try or two in the last ten minutes to make it look more comfortable than it was. I looked back And since 2016 the average margin had been 18 points, it would be interesting to know what it was at the 70 minute mark. (To put that into context the average margin over Ireland in that same timeframe is 17, Wales 21. Noting that in that timeframe Wales and Ireland won 4 six nations titles each, plus wales won it in 2005, people often underrate Argentina. Edit: I got intrigued so worked out over that timeframe the margin against England was 9, springboks 10, wallabies 11, and France 20, noting that we typically playEd our top team against France but not ireland, Wales, or Argentina)

But I think you are right that people are expecting a Big win, bigger than normal, pumas being undercooked and all. The pumas will turn up, but I don’t think we can expect them to be accurate. So much if it is mental though, and I’m not sure how prepared the all blacks will be in that respect.
 
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rugbeian_usa

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I'm happy to announce that ESPN+ will be streaming the Argentina vs New Zealand game live @ 9:30 tonight (Pacific Time), USA.
 

rugbeian_usa

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Well, ESPN+ was wrong. Here we are at 10:10 pm Pacific and the game still hasn't started yet. :rolleyes:
 

rugbeian_usa

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Kudos to the Pumas who lead 16-3 at half time. It's amazing how well they're playing considering they haven't played a game in ages compared to the All Blacks.
 
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rugbeian_usa

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Pumas win 25-15. Their first test match in 402 days and they took down the almighty All Blacks. I was hoping for an upset, but I didn't think I'd see it. Congratulations Argentina!
 

Kiwiwomble

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The passion they’re showing celebrating is part of the reason they’ve won, they were everywhere and wanted it more, great performance
 

Tallshort

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Well that's something you don't always wake up too!

Well done Argentina
 

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What a win! Is Ian Foster the Allister Coetzee within New Zealand?
 

Cruz_del_Sur

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I'm a bit in shock. To be fair, i dont think anyone outside the squad gave them a chance. Part of me was saying "why the **** are you waking up at 6:30 on a bloody Saturday, you silly kid!". Glad i did.
A twitter poll a week ago said we'd have to eat an avg of 30 pts per game. Half the players haven't played in a long time, let alone together. And our defense. We were winning a lof of the 1v1 contests. What impressed me the most was the endurance. I expected us to drop the pace the last 30-20 minutes. I dont think that happened. I think the AB increased theirs, but i think we kept our composure under pressure.
Our scrums, always an unknown over the last decade, was solid.

It is a bit infuriating to play like this today after having an appalling world cup last year.

I feel a bit sorry for Creevy, as he is a big part of this group and he didn't get to be part of the win.
 

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