[2020 Six Nations] England Squad

[Roady26]

I do not think it all about having a balanced backrow - but also a balanced pack. Saying that if we have a small 8 we need a bigger ball carrying option flanker is probably true in most cases. But it is less so if you have good ball carriers in your tight 5. When you have options like Itoje, Genge, Mako and Sinks etc. who can take more of the pressure off in terms off dynamic ball carrying then you can probably afford a lighter backrow. From a defensive point of view if I am worrying about those guys (and manu) running hard lines all day, then I am bricking it over what players like Earl, Curry or George will be doing with a bit more space with outside backs running off them.

Billy is immense even if he is not at his best, and we have been blessed with a series of big 8's that have come to be a bit of trademark of an english pack - but I think now is the perfect time to be looking at other avenues of back row play. Also Dombrandt has a massive future but he is not Billy, as others have mentioned his game is picking lines and offloading. EJ obviously has his eye on him and has presumably given him some things to work on and letting him get games under his belt at Quins. There is no real need to rush him in if EJ thinks some more development time will help him.

Also I think after the WC it is clear that with a bit of guise and smart calling, you don't need a lineout monster in the backrow. Sure it helps but it is not essential, especially with Lawes and Itoje in the row (Lawes' defensive lineout game is cronically underrated). Curry does a serviceable job as a third option, Earl takes a lot of ball for Sarries, Hill can do enough as can Ludlam etc.

I think the future of loose forwards for England is really bright. Now is probably the right time to play around and find out what works well and who needs to work on what.

 

[bushytop]

I think Sinkler going off early effected the scrum more than anything tbh.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I do not think it all about having a balanced backrow - but also a balanced pack. Saying that if we have a small 8 we need a bigger ball carrying option flanker is probably true in most cases. But it is less so if you have good ball carriers in your tight 5. When you have options like Itoje, Genge, Mako and Sinks etc. who can take more of the pressure off in terms off dynamic ball carrying then you can probably afford a lighter backrow.

I'd agree that if we had a particularly good carrying tight 5 then we wouldn't have to worry so much about carriers in the back row, but we don't. Genge, Vunipola and Sinckler are all good carriers but only 2 of those 3 can be on the pitch at the same time, and I really don't know where the idea that Itoje's a good ball carrier has come from. He's an excellent player but not a dominant ball carrier; certainly no more than the average international lock. Genge/Vunipola and Sinckler are nowehere near good enough to make up for a weak carrying back row by themselves.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think Sinkler going off early effected the scrum more than anything tbh.

Really? For all of his faults, Cole is still a solid scrummager, arguably better than Sinks. I really doubt that that was much of a cause at all, and definitely not what affected the scrum more than anything else.

 

[bushytop]

Really? For all of his faults, Cole is still a solid scrummager, arguably better than Sinks. I really doubt that that was much of a cause at all, and definitely not what affected the scrum more than anything else.

... maybe I should have started my post with the old adage "Now I'm no front row/scrummaging expert but..." I just got the feeling that the whole team 'sank' a little when Sinks went off (the pack in particular)... and Cole looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

 

[Roady26]

Really? For all of his faults, Cole is still a solid scrummager, arguably better than Sinks. I really doubt that that was much of a cause at all, and definitely not what affected the scrum more than anything else.

From what I saw Cole was getting hammered pretty hard in the final, generally it looked like George was having to let go of his loosehead a bit to help out. Cole especially struggled as he got tired towards the end I think as well. I could be wrong though.

Sinks isn't a better scrummager though I would have thought, and either way the Saffers had a superiour scrum.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

... maybe I should have started my post with the old adage "Now I'm no front row/scrummaging expert but..." I just got the feeling that the whole team 'sank' a little when Sinks went off (the pack in particular)... and Cole looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

That's a fair point, morale definitely would've gone down went Sinks went off and could well have made a difference. That said (and this is entirely an opinion so I'd be interested to hear what other front rowers have to say) but I've always thought of scrums as being a part of the game where morale and passion don't really make much of a difference. It's simply a case of how good of a scrummager/how strong you are. Kind of similar to how, if you're lifting weights, you're simply as strong as you are; you can't suddenly bench an extra 20kg because your morale is higher.

 

[bushytop]

Maybe my viewpoint stemmed from judging the Welsh and English scrums vs SA... and then against each other. See I reckon that Wales, who have not been known for having a particularly good scrum these last 5 - 10 years done 'about the same' in the scrum against both England (in last years 6 Nations) and against SA in the World Cup. I'd say our scrum was 'overall' beaten both times... just. Now I know how a side does against one side doesn't necessarily dictate how they'll do against another but I guess off the back of that I just assumed that the English and SA scrums would be very competitive and somewhat equal. Now I can't remember if Sinkler went off before any scrums actually took place but I obviously remember England getting d**ked in the scrums when Cole was at TH. This has probably formed my opinion.

 

[ncurd]

As bad as the scrum was it wasn't what lost us the final it was the **** poor handling that lost it because it lead to those scrums.

I think Sinkler going off effected the side negatively they just looked lost but I'm unconvinced we'd have faired better at scrum time.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As bad as the scrum was it wasn't what lost us the final it was the **** poor handling that lost it because it lead to those scrums.

I think Sinkler going off effected the side negatively they just looked lost but I'm unconvinced we'd have faired better at scrum time.

I agree with this - Sinckler was at the heart of so much we did right during the tournament, seeing him go off so early would have knocked the players a bit. Plus Mako/Lawes are poor scrummagers, so I think we'd have got battered in the scrums if Sinck had stayed on tbh.

 

[bushytop]

I suppose my point is that off of the back of the World Cup final... reading between the lines in the English threads, I'm getting that some of/most of you guys think your scrum isn't good enough and measures need to be taken to improve it, as at some point you'll be coming up against that SA scrum again. Now all teams should always look to improve but my point is that I reckon it was maybe just a one-off.

My reasoning for this is that you guys would have no worries and even assume far more than parity going up against the Welsh scrum... but in turn our scrum was pretty bloody good against the Boks, even when we changed our front row (young guys not known for their scrummaging). We actually scored off of 'choosing' to reset the scrum instead of taking the penalty during the second half.

I'd actually put England's scrum up there with Ireland's as probably the joint second best in world rugby behind the Boks... so it's not as doom and gloom as you think.

edit. We actually struggled with the Aussie scrum more than the Boks come to think of it.

 

[Scotty]

That's a fair point, morale definitely would've gone down went Sinks went off and could well have made a difference. That said (and this is entirely an opinion so I'd be interested to hear what other front rowers have to say) but I've always thought of scrums as being a part of the game where morale and passion don't really make much of a difference. It's simply a case of how good of a scrummager/how strong you are. Kind of similar to how, if you're lifting weights, you're simply as strong as you are; you can't suddenly bench an extra 20kg because your morale is higher.

You csnt get stronger because of morale no but when morale is low you dont always give 100% like when you are on your last rep and stuggling if your morale is high your determinded to get the last one, if morale is low you can just give up even if you had it in you.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I'd agree that if we had a particularly good carrying tight 5 then we wouldn't have to worry so much about carriers in the back row, but we don't. Genge, Vunipola and Sinckler are all good carriers but only 2 of those 3 can be on the pitch at the same time, and I really don't know where the idea that Itoje's a good ball carrier has come from. He's an excellent player but not a dominant ball carrier; certainly no more than the average international lock. Genge/Vunipola and Sinckler are nowehere near good enough to make up for a weak carrying back row by themselves.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with this statement. Locks as a rule are not dominant tight carriers in the modern game, they tend to have a centre of gravity that is too high to break gang tackles and are susceptible to having their legs chopped from under them. The only international quality locks I can think of that appear to offer a better carrying threat than Itoje would be Etzebeth, Ryan and Nakarawa (who doesn't really count). Despite the "physiological challenges" he faces (lanky mfer), Maro has turned out some pretty memorable carries and is also pretty effective close to the line.

Also, for some context, take a look at some average metres per carry stats in 2019, for international games - (not the be all and end all, but should be comparable for players who mostly carry in the tight):

Savea: 4.5m
Billy V: 3.5m
Maro: 3m
Sinckler: 2.8m
Marx: 2.5m
Kruis: 2.5m
Genge: 2.4m
Lawes: 2.2m
Furlong: 2.2m
Etzebeth: 2.1m
Ryan: 1.8m
Mako: 1.5m
Alun Wyn: 1.2m

 

[BPM]

Agreed. Itoje's tight carrying is average to good. However, his overall athleticism is streets ahead of most other Tier 1 locks which means his average metres made is probably lifted by the occasional bigger breaks he has that most of his competitors would be unlikely to (or would never make).

What does the fact that Savea is top tell us given he's probably the lightest and shortest player on that list? You could say he's the exception, but I think it's actually a combination of picking good lines, a low centre of gravity that makes him hard to bring down and a good amount of pace. All of which you could argue Sam Simmonds and/or Ben Earl could bring to the table and brings this whole argument full circle ...

FWIW, My overall feeling on Simmonds is that he is definitely good enough for test rugby but not as an 8, which then begs the question of whether he's better than Underhill, Curry, Ludlam or Earl, which I'm not fully convinced he is. I'm mentioning those four specifically as they're in the squad. I'm also not sold on Simmonds being better than Dombrandt or Mercer who are 8s, first and foremost.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Sorry but I'd have to disagree with this statement. Locks as a rule are not dominant tight carriers in the modern game, they tend to have a centre of gravity that is too high to break gang tackles and are susceptible to having their legs chopped from under them.

Fair enough, Itoje's a better carrier than I gave him credit for, but your point about locks not being dominant tight carriers just confirms that, as good as Itoje's carrying is for a lock, he still can't make up for a lack of back row carriers (who are expected to be your major carriers).

What does the fact that Savea is top tell us given he's probably the lightest and shortest player on that list? You could say he's the exception, but I think it's actually a combination of picking good lines, a low centre of gravity that makes him hard to bring down and a good amount of pace. All of which you could argue Sam Simmonds and/or Ben Earl could bring to the table and brings this whole argument full circle ...

Savea's an incredibly powerful carrier and I agree with what you're saying, but his stats are massively inflated by the fact that he's one of NZs '1s' in their 1-3-3-1 formation (along with Coles/Taylor) so is always positioned on the wing where he can rack up major metres, often unopposed for the first few metres of his carry. Frankly I'd say it's pretty incredible that Vunipola's only 1 metre behind him given the circumstances.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sorry, but heads going down because one of your better players goes off is U12 stuff. If that really was the case then it just adds to the already lengthy flaky charge sheet.

This was the RWC final, possibly the only shot they'll get at it and their heads went down because of an injury to a prop when the replacement had 90 caps of experience?

I don't really buy that TBH, we basically just got beaten up and I doubt Sincks would have made much difference. But mental hardness is part of the whole equation, and the toughest take a breath and respond positively to adversity.

If you look back at the RWC we won 4 games we were expected to win easily enough. That's fine and professional, but we only faced 2 real challenges and responded brilliantly and miserably in turn. The resilience and problem solving questions remain.

I'll come back to the whole size / carrying thing later.

 

[Leinster Fan]

What does the fact that Savea is top tell us given he's probably the lightest and shortest player on that list? You could say he's the exception, but I think it's actually a combination of picking good lines, a low centre of gravity that makes him hard to bring down and a good amount of pace. All of which you could argue Sam Simmonds and/or Ben Earl could bring to the table

I think Savea being so far ahead is probably down to the fact that he plays a different role so pretty much all the other there, most of the rest there carry almost exclusively in the tight spaces, Savea spends a lot of his time out wide and plays a different role to the rest, that's not to say he isn't an excellent carrier but I'm not sure it's fair to compare him with a lot of the players on the list.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think people underestimate how Lawes weakens a scrum, then you add Mako into thar equation and we are never going to be a monster pack at scrum time.

And to disagree with those above, scrums and 100% mental. It's not just about gym stats or pushing, it's about timing, focus and being 100% as a unit.

England got smashed in the scrum and in the game because mentally we were weak.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think people underestimate how Lawes weakens a scrum, then you add Mako into thar equation and we are never going to be a monster pack at scrum time.

And to disagree with those above, scrums and 100% mental. It's not just about gym stats or pushing, it's about timing, focus and being 100% as a unit.

England got smashed in the scrum and in the game because mentally we were weak.

Scrums definitely aren't 100% mental, otherwise pro props wouldn't waste all of that time in the gym; but I get that that was hyperbole. I don't think that you've actually argued against the point though; I said that scrums aren't much to do with morale, you've said that they are to do with mental aspects like timing and being together as a unit. They don't really tie into morale. Those are things that international teams practice hundreds of times over the week before a game until they get that process right; I'm arguing that come game day, that process is either good enough to overcome the other team's or it isn't.

 

[BPM]

Being part of a beaten pack is sh*t. I've played in plenty of games where I've been part of a pack that's being humped in the scrum and there isn't much you can do when you know that you're almost certainly giving away a penalty every time. Sometimes it's not even that obvious, but once a ref has made up his mind that your team is infringing, there's not much you can do about it. Either way it is a massive morale drain for the whole team, not just the forwards and I think we saw a bit of that in the RWC when it felt like every scrum was a foregone conclusion.