[2020 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (23/02/20)

[martinspoonboy1]

what a poor comment... I have been far harsher on the froggies when they were super poors during a decade... even when they were winning... Can you honestly justify that way, the poor level rugby between England and ireland ???

England played without precision but with a great intensity which I find it hard to fault.

Faz was looking to hurt Stander's knee IMO, holding above the knee, putting all his weight medially onto it. Once the punching started, I don't blame him for holding on, letting go would have exposed him to more damage if Stander kept going.
You still can't punch people though, and I'd have carded both, with penalty to England as the retaliation always gets the last word on sanction.

Faz was looking to hurt Stander's knee IMO, holding above the knee, putting all his weight medially onto it. Once the punching started, I don't blame him for holding on, letting go would have exposed him to more damage if Stander kept going.
You still can't punch people though, and I'd have carded both, with penalty to England as the retaliation always gets the last word on sanction.

Behave...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Eddie giving it back to the media in his post-match interviews:
"They're a good team, this England team. Any time we have a small mishap it's the end of the world (from the media), the whole world's falling in."

About feeling vindicated for his selections:
"Look, I don't need vindication. You guys (the media) are so clever, you're all clever so I've just got to suck it all up, enjoy what you say, try to learn from you and maybe I can pick a better team next week."

Considering some media were calling for him to be sacked after the France game, I'm not surprised he feels like giving it back. It really is about time that the English press tried supporting the managers of English sports teams rather than being outraged at every little thing they say, then complaining when they won't say anything, then demanding their heads on a platter. The English media seem to consider it their duty to destroy our coaches, and to glory in their failure.

Rant over.

Nope.

You reap what you sow with the media. Jones plays the media, he says a lot, much of which is provocative or downright crass and can scarcely complain when the media bite back. He's had plenty of credit when things have gone well and if he doesn't like the heat he's free to get out of the kitchen. The press shouldn't genuflect and some of his more bonkers ideas would have attracted serious scrutiny anywhere.

Gareth Southgate has a higher profile job which has destroyed some of his predecessors. He's engaged with the media, been polite, considered, open and logical and quietly got on with doing an impossible job very effectively. He realises the media interest but hasn't sought to take them on or game them. He hasn't got a free pass from the media but he does get a fair hearing.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Nope.

You reap what you sow with the media. Jones plays the media, he says a lot, much of which is provocative or downright crass and can scarcely complain when the media bite back. He's had plenty of credit when things have gone well and if he doesn't like the heat he's free to get out of the kitchen. The press shouldn't genuflect and some of his more bonkers ideas would have attracted serious scrutiny anywhere.

Gareth Southgate has a higher profile job which has destroyed some of his predecessors. He's engaged with the media, been polite, considered, open and logical and quietly got on with doing an impossible job very effectively. He realises the media interest but hasn't sought to take them on or game them. He hasn't got a free pass from the media but he does get a fair hearing.

But that's the sort of the point... Eddie deliberately plays the media and admits as much. He identified them as the biggest single obstacle to English rugby success when he took the England job. He gets them frothing at the mouth, focussing on him, anything to distract them from the players and the team so that they can get on with their jobs. And it works. But Eddie didn't create the wolfpack that are English sports journalists, he's just dealing with the environment they created long before he arrived in the only way he feels he can.

Southgate may be getting a pass at the moment, but Lancaster tried that approach as England manager and soon got mauled. They'll turn on Southgate soon enough. Heck, how many football manages have got sacked for non-results related reasons thanks to our wonderful press?

 

[Jakedood]

I'd disagree that all 9s are clear step up. Cooney was not great yesterday and McGrath is meh. Are they beyter than Murray currently? Probably yes. Are they international level. I'm not sure.

Have to heavily disagree with you here. Thought Cooney looked a real marked step up, yes May caught him and slapped the ball out of his hands, but it was quick from May rather than Cooney dallying, could've happened to anyone. ANd even if it was his fault Look at the stinker Murray had, couldn't buy a decent box kick, slow delivery, and barely got involved in the game for anything positive. But Murray aside, when Cooney came on, his passing was crisp, swift and accurate, and the inside supporting lines he runs so well came off twice, testing the English cover defense
So I'm not really sure how this can be argued that he's not a step up, his box kicking for Ulster this season has been superb too, and he's so clearly in form

Also listening to O'Driscoll at half time, the mans bias is ridiculous

Sexton screws up for the first try: " I think Johnny's done really well there and is just highly unlucky". Aye, bullsh*t sir, especially when he gave heavy criticism of Stockdale for his

Rant over

 

[munstermuffin]

Have to heavily disagree with you here. Thought Cooney looked a real marked step up, yes May caught him and slapped the ball out of his hands, but it was quick from May rather than Cooney dallying, could've happened to anyone. ANd even if it was his fault Look at the stinker Murray had, couldn't buy a decent box kick, slow delivery, and barely got involved in the game for anything positive. But Murray aside, when Cooney came on, his passing was crisp, swift and accurate, and the inside supporting lines he runs so well came off twice, testing the English cover defense
So I'm not really sure how this can be argued that he's not a step up, his box kicking for Ulster this season has been superb too, and he's so clearly in form

Also listening to O'Driscoll at half time, the mans bias is ridiculous

Sexton screws up for the first try: " I think Johnny's done really well there and is just highly unlucky". Aye, bullsh*t sir, especially when he gave heavy criticism of Stockdale for his

Rant over

His stats as well as my view is he made alot of errors. Yes he did alot of good too. I don't disagree he is in better form than Murray. I never said Murray was good or should start. More Cooney wasn't the standard either. I'd disagree on pass as more I found it was slow at times too and wondered is it an Irish thing. But Cooney seemed a bit lax at base a few times and again as I pointed out it shows gulf between European Cup and International.

Should he start ahead of Murray. As I always said yes. I'm not basing it on vs Murray. I'm basing it on the standard required. We have no 9 at that level. And I'm not just basing it on 1 incident but rather a few. Yes he was better than Murray I'm not denying that

 

[Jakedood]

His stats as well as my view is he made alot of errors. Yes he did alot of good too. I don't disagree he is in better form than Murray. I never said Murray was good or should start. More Cooney wasn't the standard either. I'd disagree on pass as more I found it was slow at times too and wondered is it an Irish thing. But Cooney seemed a bit lax at base a few times and again as I pointed out it shows gulf between European Cup and International.

Should he start ahead of Murray. As I always said yes. I'm not basing it on vs Murray. I'm basing it on the standard required. We have no 9 at that level. And I'm not just basing it on 1 incident but rather a few. Yes he was better than Murray I'm not denying that

Fair enough, I've clearly misread your post. It can be expected that it takes a few games to readjust to the speed of an international level though, would that be fair? And when i talk about speed of ball I meant the transfer of the pass rather than the time it spends at the ruck which could be for a number of reasons, but the pass speed allows an extra few split seconds for the 10 which can be vital. Aaron Smith's passing is such an asset for example to someone like Barrett who you cant afford to give time on the ball to.
Which stats are you referring to might I ask?

 

[big ginger 8]

Have to heavily disagree with you here. Thought Cooney looked a real marked step up, yes May caught him and slapped the ball out of his hands, but it was quick from May rather than Cooney dallying, could've happened to anyone. ANd even if it was his fault Look at the stinker Murray had, couldn't buy a decent box kick, slow delivery, and barely got involved in the game for anything positive. But Murray aside, when Cooney came on, his passing was crisp, swift and accurate, and the inside supporting lines he runs so well came off twice, testing the English cover defense
So I'm not really sure how this can be argued that he's not a step up, his box kicking for Ulster this season has been superb too, and he's so clearly in form

Also listening to O'Driscoll at half time, the mans bias is ridiculous

Sexton screws up for the first try: " I think Johnny's done really well there and is just highly unlucky". Aye, bullsh*t sir, especially when he gave heavy criticism of Stockdale for his

Rant over

Although Sexton could have done better luck definitely had more to do with it than Stockdale's. A bad bounce caught Sexton off guard but Stockdale was just passive and Daly wanted it more.

Agree Cooney should be in though. I don't think May was fully legal in stripping him, for me his bigger mistake was he carried blindside at one stage by walking into the English defender and our attack finished soon after. He did add a lot with good support lines though. One thing I do want to see more of from him is digging for the ball and not just waiting for it to be presented.

 

[Jakedood]

Although Sexton could have done better luck definitely had more to do with it than Stockdale's. A bad bounce caught Sexton off guard but Stockdale was just passive and Daly wanted it more.

Agree Cooney should be in though. I don't think May was fully legal in stripping him, for me his bigger mistake was he carried blindside at one stage by walking into the English defender and our attack finished soon after. He did add a lot with good support lines though. One thing I do want to see more of from him is digging for the ball and not just waiting for it to be presented.

Thats fair enough regarding digging for the ball

Could you not present the argument that Stockdale going for the ball when not in position to take it cleanly was just as much of a risk, and therefore covering the bounce as best he could was the best thing? Whereas Sexton got hands to it twice and couldn't control the ball...
I'd say both are big screw ups, dont get me wrong, but saying luck is involved with one and not the other... It just gets to me

 

[munstermuffin]

Fair enough, I've clearly misread your post. It can be expected that it takes a few games to readjust to the speed of an international level though, would that be fair? And when i talk about speed of ball I meant the transfer of the pass rather than the time it spends at the ruck which could be for a number of reasons, but the pass speed allows an extra few split seconds for the 10 which can be vital. Aaron Smith's passing is such an asset for example to someone like Barrett who you cant afford to give time on the ball to.
Which stats are you referring to might I ask?

Yes it takes a few games but I also don't think Cooney will ever get to the level of being a top 9. Factor in he is not a youngster either.
Stats are turnovers conceded and his taking in to contact. As I said also he ran great support lines and isn't all doom and gloom and a change would help Murray too.
As I said we all agree on changes. I'm comparing to the standard when we got to mixing it with top teams

 

[munstermuffin]

Thats fair enough regarding digging for the ball

Could you not present the argument that Stockdale going for the ball when not in position to take it cleanly was just as much of a risk, and therefore covering the bounce as best he could was the best thing? Whereas Sexton got hands to it twice and couldn't control the ball...
I'd say both are big screw ups, dont get me wrong, but saying luck is involved with one and not the other... It just gets to me

I'd agree both were big screw ups.

Fact is Sexton is in decline at this level. No disrespect as age waits for no man. The worry is the supporting cast are not fighting to take his jersey.

Stockdale must be under pressure now for his jersey but Earls is not the answer at 32. Again we need to injest young blood. I'd actually like to take a gamble on 1 of the Ulster lads. But again options are bot superb. We are developing good quantity but not top range quality

 

[Jakedood]

I'd agree both were big screw ups.

Fact is Sexton is in decline at this level. No disrespect as age waits for no man. The worry is the supporting cast are not fighting to take his jersey.

Stockdale must be under pressure now for his jersey but Earls is not the answer at 32. Again we need to injest young blood. I'd actually like to take a gamble on 1 of the Ulster lads. But again options are bot superb. We are developing good quantity but not top range quality

Re the Ulster lads, in the next couple of years you might see Mike Lowry (hopefully) get pushed into his natural position as a 10, if he can add some mass to his frame. Thats his major weakness atm
For wingers, Robert Balacoune shows serious potential, has come on leaps and bounds since last year in his carrying, confidence and his ability to beat his man
We've a few U20's coming through but I'd say Robert is the one to watch... him and if we're talking back row at all, David McCann is a huge talent

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'd personally get Luke McGrath in at 9 with Ross Byrne, the familiarity will help Byrne who showed up well yesterday. McGrath's form is strong and he's shown more in his time in green than Cooney for me.

Don't think Stockdale's spot is in question, I thought he was good yesterday bar the, admittedly massive, **** up.

 

[Amiga500]

Stockdale was embarassingly lax. Not the first time he's done that either - how many lessons does someone need before it becomes clear the message isn't sinking in?

Murray couldn't kick, couldn't pass (timely) and couldn't run. Cooney got nabbed by an offside May and then went up a blind alley later on instead of passing open across the field. But overall did far more positive for us than Murray (and made far less mistakes).

Healy out, Killer in.
Herring out, Kelleher in (Herring hasn't done much wrong, but age profile is against him)
Toner out, Henderson in
POM out, Stander across, Doris in.
VDF... I'd be really tempted to give one of Connors/Penny a game.
Murray out, Cooney in, McGrath to bench.
Sexton stays... simply as I don't think R. Byrne is the future either. Harry isn't there yet and Carty has went backward.
Stockdale out, Balacoune in.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

England played without precision but with a great intensity which I find it hard to fault.

Intensity is necessary, but a minimum requirement really. Precision under pressure is what really marks out top players / teams.

 

[klitarris]

The one eyedness form English fans on here is gas!

Speak for yourself bro!

 

[klitarris]

But that's the sort of the point... Eddie deliberately plays the media and admits as much. He identified them as the biggest single obstacle to English rugby success when he took the England job. He gets them frothing at the mouth, focussing on him, anything to distract them from the players and the team so that they can get on with their jobs. And it works. But Eddie didn't create the wolfpack that are English sports journalists, he's just dealing with the environment they created long before he arrived in the only way he feels he can.

Southgate may be getting a pass at the moment, but Lancaster tried that approach as England manager and soon got mauled. They'll turn on Southgate soon enough. Heck, how many football manages have got sacked for non-results related reasons thanks to our wonderful press?

I couldn't agree more, and I'm always surprised that more people can't see that one of the reasons Eddie Jones makes these often ridiculous statements is to get the often toxic attention of the English/British media on him rather than on his players. He'd much rather they were frothing at the mouth over him rather than over some interpretation of what one of his players has said. To be fair, i think he also enjoys the sparring...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[BrokenWing]

Maybe Sexton's kicking was off because he was wearing very heavy boots, so he was knackered just walking onto the pitch.

 

[Amiga500]

Maybe Sexton's kicking was off because he was wearing very heavy boots, so he was knackered just walking onto the pitch.

He had to not only carry his ego out onto the pitch - but then try and run around with it for 80 mins.

Any wonder he was clean fúkced...

 

[CAB]

England played without precision but with a great intensity which I find it hard to fault.



Behave...

I totally agree they played with great intensity but only in the first half and only when they seem to be the alone team on the pitch... and it was very simple and not entertaining at all... Wales beaten by France have seemed more convincing IMHO... English lost their "way" in the second half and were lucky that Irish played only by moments in second half... I have seen a poor match, enjoying only 25 minutes in first half, where the "rosbifs" ( ) did a very direct and very simple game at fast speed, but with no flair at all... In the last 10 years, I have appreciated the english team much more than in this match...