[2020 Six Nations] England vs Wales (07/03/20)

[ncurd]

BUT allowed Wales to pressure them leading to indiscipline (misconduct) which ,had the game gone on 5 min longer,would have cost them the game

But there weren't 5 mins remaining....

Game management based on the clock is key certainly when it comes to cynical play. When Gene was carded there was only 7mins of play left and Wales were 17 points behind. They took another 5mins to score and even then another 3 after England went to 13 men.

Also look at Scotland they played 52mins again 14 men and only got 24 points in that period.

The chances of any team scoring 17points or more in that time frame are slim so under pressure you to play fast and lose with the laws a bit more. If Wales were doing that at the 50min mark with a similar scoreline England may have been more disciplined.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

This is the only clip I've seen
https://twitter.com/AlexMLowe/status/1237030774307729410?s=19

Remember seeing it live and being surprised he wasn't carded tbh

Better one here.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/courtney-lawes-tackle-on-alun-wyn-jones/

It's an interesting one. There's no conclusive angle for me. I reckon Lawes has pretty much missed with the shot.

 

[LIONSxv]

Sorry but I don't see the lawes one. He misses the tackle brushes a stooping Jones. I would imagine their would be dozens of similar incidents over a weekend. I'm scratching my head of how this is citable but Ryan's shoulder first ruck clear outs where deemed OK?
Going back to Williams tip tackle... I thought going past the horizontal and landing on shoulders was a citable offence. Out of the two the tip tackle is far worse for me
It all seems extremely inconsistent currently

 

[Nudger]

What did a Welsh player do that would be possibly be ban worthy? Only one I could think is Parkes high tackle on Tuilagi but I've only seen one angle where you can't see where shoulder connects.

Just that Parks first contact is his head into the face of manu his shoulder then slips up to finish the job

 

[Jimbo]

Feels like a witch hunt for Jones comments post match.

 

[Johnny Storm]

Anyway Marler's on the grabbing genitals offence so 12 weeks as it will hard to argue for anything higher, will plead guilty but get little time off for 'good behaviour'. 2nd retirement?

Will Marler be the first sportsman in history to end an international career because of a cock-grab?

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Scoreline flattered Wales, although if England really want to progress to being constantly as good if not better than the All Blacks they need to sort out their discipline.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Finally got a chance to watch the match right through after missing it live. Some thoughts on England:

The scrum was excellent again. Proudfoot's been a great signing. It has been dominant through all four games and a constant source of penalties for us.
The physiciality was again excellent. We were constantly getting across the gainline in attack and constantly driving them back in the tackle on defence.
Kicking game was its usual productive self.
Really pleased with how we reacted after Wales scored their wonder try at the start of the second half. No panic, we just went back to doing what we do, won a penalty at the breakdown, another at the scrum, rebuilt the lead, then scored a fine try to put the game away. Quality response.
Scored three good tries ball in hand, good to see that back in our game. Disappointed we didn't get the try bonus point (again), but the circumstances at the end certainly weren't favourable to that.
Thought Farrell had a great captain's game. He set the tone, making big hits, shouting 'Smash him! Smash him!' to his teammates, carrying across the gainline, throwing quality passes, perfect from the tee, and giving away three penalties in a row then laughing about it. He plays on the edge, just like Martin Johnson used to, and sometimes goes too far, but he's constantly impacting the game from the first minute to the last, which is what a captain should do.
Itoje was again excellent, but so were many of our boys, too many to pick out, especially in the pack.
Slade proved he's a good option at fullback, although Daly has been surprisingly sound under the high ball the last couple of games. Long may it continue.
Watson gonna Watson.
Didn't feel Eddie was saying at the end that Tuilagi shouldn't have been carded under the current laws, but rather that the current laws need to be looked at because they're not fit for purpose. Given the feeling on this board that there is inconsistency from the ref between the Parkes and Tuilagi headshots, he's probably right.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Some thoughts on Wales:

That try at the start of the second half was a thing of beauty. It's great to see Wales back playing Welsh rugby after the tedious dirge served up through the Gatland years. Pivac is definitely the right man for the job.
Having said that, I don't understand why he persists with so many players that fit Gatland's model but not his. Wales need to commit to the Pivac way and get the players in who can play that way. It seems he picked a squad with a huge number of caps because it was Twickenham and he didn't want a callow team to get blatted, but if you're worried about that sort of thing, when do you make the change, especially as Wales have three games against NZ coming up and one against SA? At some point, they've got to commit whole-heartedly to the new style, players etc, just as France have done this Six Nations.
Speaking of which, I never did get the AWJ love-in, I always thought he was a decent player but nothing special, and that he plays in a position where Wales haven't produced much of anything for an age, hence the high number of caps, but I have to say that he was invisible in that game. If not for the Marler incident, I would barely have noticed he was playing. The only time I remember him doing anything in the game was when he threw a terrible pass that missed his man completely. While the locks in other Tier One teams are carrying across the gainline, driving attackers back in the tackle, jacaklling ball at the breakdown, stealing lineouts, linking with the backs etc, AWJ does none of those things, has no real impact on the game, then is lauded yet again as 'a warrior' (whatever that means), 'a legend' (i.e. he's old) and 'a great captain' (with an impressive 4-8 record in his last 12 games against Tier One opposition). I just don't get it. Help me somebody, I feel like I'm the only one not party to the secret!
The Wales front five look weaker than they have been in a long time. I remember the likes of Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones giving England all sorts of bother, but the current crop seem largely anonymous. It feels like the Welsh scrum has been struggling for a couple of years now.
Tipuric is so dynamic ball in hand.
Tompkins has been up and down this tournament, but he's flashed some really good stuff. The lad has potential.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Speaking of which, I never did get the AWJ love-in, I always thought he was a decent player but nothing special, and that he plays in a position where Wales haven't produced much of anything for an age, hence the high number of caps, but I have to say that he was invisible in that game. If not for the Marler incident, I would barely have noticed he was playing.

Good luck.
I've been saying the same for a while and it never goes down well

 

[ForumWhore]

"Alun Wyn Jones is the most ineffectual tier 1 lock in the world cup".

Alan Quinlan, sometime during the 2019 WC.

Quinlan knows.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Good luck.
I've been saying the same for a while and it never goes down well

Glad I'm not the only one! Honestly, would he even be in the England squad, let alone starting? Or the Ireland squad? NZ? SA? He just doesn't impact the game enough.

 

[ForumWhore]

He's mastered getting his photo taken handing coats to children though. Legend.

 

[klitarris]

Speaking of which, I never did get the AWJ love-in, I always thought he was a decent player but nothing special, and that he plays in a position where Wales haven't produced much of anything for an age, hence the high number of caps, but I have to say that he was invisible in that game. If not for the Marler incident, I would barely have noticed he was playing. The only time I remember him doing anything in the game was when he threw a terrible pass that missed his man completely. While the locks in other Tier One teams are carrying across the gainline, driving attackers back in the tackle, jacaklling ball at the breakdown, stealing lineouts, linking with the backs etc, AWJ does none of those things, has no real impact on the game, then is lauded yet again as 'a warrior' (whatever that means), 'a legend' (i.e. he's old) and 'a great captain' (with an impressive 4-8 record in his last 12 games against Tier One opposition). I just don't get it. Help me somebody, I feel like I'm the only one not party to the secret!

I'm so glad someone else thinks the same! I get that he is good at influencing (whingeing at) the ref, and he is definitely a good solid player who gets stuck in and frequently makes a nuisance of himself. But looking at the top locks around the world (Retallick, Whitelock, Etzebeth, De Jager, Nakarawa, Henderson, Ryan, Gray, Itoje and even Kruis and Lawes - I'm sure I've missed some good ones but those are the ones that jump to mind) they all bring something that AWJ doesn't, and I think I'd select all of those I've named above him. Also, it is obvious that his influence is beginning to wane as he gets on a bit.

One of my fears is that he gets selected as Lions Captain next year, which potentially automatically takes up a space in the team in an area where there are some great players.

 

[MarkyH]

@Not Eddie Jones You do realise that you will have triggered a group of valley boys who are ready to boot up there 56k modems to defend the brilliance of King Alun Wyn Jones of Swanseashire!

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm so glad someone else thinks the same! I get that he is good at influencing (whingeing at) the ref, and he is definitely a good solid player who gets stuck in and frequently makes a nuisance of himself. But looking at the top locks around the world (Retallick, Whitelock, Etzebeth, De Jager, Nakarawa, Henderson, Ryan, Gray, Itoje and even Kruis and Lawes - I'm sure I've missed some good ones but those are the ones that jump to mind) they all bring something that AWJ doesn't, and I think I'd select all of those I've named above him. Also, it is obvious that his influence is beginning to wane as he gets on a bit.

One of my fears is that he gets selected as Lions Captain next year, which potentially automatically takes up a space in the team in an area where there are some great players.

Exactly. So many good locks around whose names are called constantly throughout the game as they make big plays (to coin a gridiron phrase) and impose themselves on the game.

I think AWJ has been heavily mythologised by Scrum V, WOL and the likes of Welshman Tom Fordyce on the BBC website, not to mention Welshman Squidge, who is now getting his youtube vids put up by the BBC. It almost feels like they have to big him up because he's the Welsh captain. As he doesn't really impact the game that much, they instead say things like 'he's got a great motor that runs for 80 minutes' (like a lot of internationals then), or 'his leadership provides a huge buff to the rest of the team' (but they keep losing anyway). They're just vague, roundabout sort of compliments because they can't really point to any actual moments of his impact on the games like they can with all the guys you've mentioned in your post. I honestly think he only won player of the tournament last year because Wales got the GS and nobody really stood out, so might as well give the award to the captain because there has to be some reason they won the GS, so maybe it was because of him.

Either way, after Saturday's game, Scrum V and WOL both sang his praises and said what 'a warrior' he was. It's a shame, I just can't see Wales moving forward as they need to with him as captain.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

@Not Eddie Jones You do realise that you will have triggered a group of valley boys who are ready to boot up there 56k modems to defend the brilliance of King Alun Wyn Jones of Swanseashire!

I know. I'm just an utter b*****d.

 

[retired9]

Maybe AWJ was just Gatlands mate and as long as you are winning.....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe AWJ was just Gatlands mate and as long as you are winning.....

I think that's unfair

I mean he's definitely a good rallying figure in that Welsh squad and a passionate player - he's well deserving of his position in the side/as Captain - it's not like there's others that he's blocking the path of.
It's the talk of him being one of the best locks around/a shoe in for the lions that feels very misplaced.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Some thoughts on Wales:

That try at the start of the second half was a thing of beauty. It's great to see Wales back playing Welsh rugby after the tedious dirge served up through the Gatland years. Pivac is definitely the right man for the job.
Having said that, I don't understand why he persists with so many players that fit Gatland's model but not his. Wales need to commit to the Pivac way and get the players in who can play that way. It seems he picked a squad with a huge number of caps because it was Twickenham and he didn't want a callow team to get blatted, but if you're worried about that sort of thing, when do you make the change, especially as Wales have three games against NZ coming up and one against SA? At some point, they've got to commit whole-heartedly to the new style, players etc, just as France have done this Six Nations.
Speaking of which, I never did get the AWJ love-in, I always thought he was a decent player but nothing special, and that he plays in a position where Wales haven't produced much of anything for an age, hence the high number of caps, but I have to say that he was invisible in that game. If not for the Marler incident, I would barely have noticed he was playing. The only time I remember him doing anything in the game was when he threw a terrible pass that missed his man completely. While the locks in other Tier One teams are carrying across the gainline, driving attackers back in the tackle, jacaklling ball at the breakdown, stealing lineouts, linking with the backs etc, AWJ does none of those things, has no real impact on the game, then is lauded yet again as 'a warrior' (whatever that means), 'a legend' (i.e. he's old) and 'a great captain' (with an impressive 4-8 record in his last 12 games against Tier One opposition). I just don't get it. Help me somebody, I feel like I'm the only one not party to the secret!
The Wales front five look weaker than they have been in a long time. I remember the likes of Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones giving England all sorts of bother, but the current crop seem largely anonymous. It feels like the Welsh scrum has been struggling for a couple of years now.
Tipuric is so dynamic ball in hand.
Tompkins has been up and down this tournament, but he's flashed some really good stuff. The lad has potential.

I agree with a lot of this post but I think some points need to be expanded a bit. I agree about a rather conservative selection but a lot of this has been due to injuries/unavailability in the backs. Biggar has played well but Anscombe is much more suited to Privac's style and when fit will be a big asset with his good running game. One thing that let's Biggar done is he doesn't really beat players with ball in hand, which creates a lot more space for other players as the defence is worried about 10. Liam Williams would be 15 but he's been injured and has only just come back (I would have swapped him and Halfpenny on the weekend.). JD is a massive miss in the centre and while Tompkins has played well on the whole, he has made a few errors which is natural when your new to test match rugby. Parkes has been Parkes, solid although unspectacular. However it highlights how much centre is a problem for Wales at the moment, no test level players have really come through in the past few years. Watkin is still young and could still prove himself but he hasn't kicked on as much as I would like, to be fair he has had injury problems. I'm sure that is Halaholo was fit he would have started 12, with no centres in Wales currently good enough they would have turned to another late 20 something NZ.

AWJ is a great captain leader and often tops the tackle charts, however the reason he has played so much is that their is simply no other better options, I would disagree that he's always just been a good player. In his prime he was one of the top locks, sadly that's a good number of years ago now. It leads into the next point about the tight 5. The past few years Wales just simply haven't had top quality tight 5 players come through. Lock cupboard has and still looks rather bare, Adam Beard has made big strives forward but I can't see him ever being better than 'good enough' for test level. Seb Davies seemed to be high the skills and athleticism but he's never really been given a chance, I'm sure he's played at 8 more than 2nd row for Wales. Props is actually looking better the past year to be honest. Dillon Lewis, Leon Brown and Rhys Carre have had a bit of a hard time but they are young and I'm reasonably confident that they will become decent test level players. Will they be top level players like Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones? I'm not so sure to be honest but I'm not writing them off yet.

I've said Wales don't have the test quality/depth for a number of potions. What's the cause of this? Poor coaching? Players simply not good enough? Probably a combination of both to be honest, compounded by the poor performances (and some case management) of the regions the past few years. Some people don't like it but there's going to be an increase in English based players which the family links being chosen the next few years. I would prefer that Wales picks players who feel Welsh through and through and it's not only an option after being over looked by their first country but this is a pro game. If Wales picked purely "Welsh" players they would be a lot poorer for it. Few names to look out for the next years:
Dewi Lake - 20 Yo who was captain of the under 20s, hooker converted from a back row. Tackles, carriers, jackles, work rate like a good back row. Only converted to hooker reasonably recently so throwing needs work, I can see him getting a cap in AI this year.

Ben Thomas - a 12/10, a silky running and great passing game would make him the ideal candidate from new Privac style, played quite a bit for the Blues this year and hasn't looked out of his depth with the step up.

Taine Basham - small flanker (5'11, 13st small) but never looked like it's a problem at pro level. Great footwork, amazing in the wider chanels, a good jackler and tackler despite his smaller stature. Only 20 but has already played over 30 times for the Dragons, there's going to be a question mark about his size but till you throw he in at test level you are never going to know if he's good enough.