2021 British & Irish Lions Squad

[Ragey Erasmus]

As others have said, Mako can't scrum at all and has never been able to. At best he has been able to hold his own but he has never dominated a scrum. He was always selected for his work in the open. If we have a game with lots of scrums as in the WC final (where did the sudden onset of butter fingers come from?) then his weakness in the scrum really gets shown up. I think the final showed he simply doesn't have a good enough set piece against SA, either as a starter or from the bench. The fact he doesn't appear to have made any progress in improving his scrum suggests he can't improve it, this is as good as he can offer.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I mean, who thinks Farrell should be going? Other than Gatland, that is

Itoje is on form, though, so that's a weird comment

Even on top form Makos scrimmaging is average - wouldn't have him in a test 23 vs South Africa no matter how good his out the back offloads etc are
You want to beat SA you can't afford a glaring weakness at the set piece

 

[Welsh Exile]

The thing with scrums is, and I don't mean to cause offence here as I include myself in this, but no one knows who's a good scrummager or not. Referees don't even have a clue which is why I wouldn't use refs pinging players at scrums as conclusive proof that Mako is a terrible scrummager. If he was that bad he wouldn't have got all the caps for England that he has but I'm willing to be corrected if someone has any stats to show how much he's been dominated in against the scrums.

Basically it comes down to the ref on the day and as I say, it's a lottery. As a bench option he might only have 1 or 2 scrums to deal with anyway.

On Itoje, I said top form and I think it's fair to say he's not been in top form. Debatable whether he's even been in good form as the Wales, Ireland and Scotland game showed. I don't think he's in bad form but good? Not for me.

 

[Welsh Exile]

A little bit of useless info here, apparently Du Toit hates the gym and hates training in general. As does Le Roux but that's less surprising.

 

[ncurd]

The thing with scrums is, and I don't mean to cause offence here as I include myself in this, but no one knows who's a good scrummager or not. Referees don't even have a clue which is why I wouldn't use refs pinging players at scrums as conclusive proof that Mako is a terrible scrummager. If he was that bad he wouldn't have got all the caps for England that he has but I'm willing to be corrected if someone has any stats to show how much he's been dominated in against the scrums.

Basically it comes down to the ref on the day and as I say, it's a lottery. As a bench option he might only have 1 or 2 scrums to deal with anyway.

On Itoje, I said top form and I think it's fair to say he's not been in top form. Debatable whether he's even been in good form as the Wales, Ireland and Scotland game showed. I don't think he's in bad form but good? Not for me.

Against an average pack at his best Mako can hold his own as Olyy said but his scrummaging has always been suspect. Against a pack that's actually good (and there aren't actually many) he always comes off badly. Even if it is just in refs heads those refs definitely think Mako is bad and he'll get the blame regardless(I think the arguement doesn't work but if hes already on the bad side before the game starts why bother playing him knowing he'll be unfairly or fairly pinged due to reputation alone.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Against an average pack at his best Mako can hold his own as Olyy said but his scrummaging has always been suspect. Against a pack that's actually good (and there aren't actually many) he always comes off badly. Even if it is just in refs heads those refs definitely think Mako is bad and he'll get the blame regardless(I think the arguement doesn't work but if hes already on the bad side before the game starts why bother playing him knowing he'll be unfairly or fairly pinged due to reputation alone.

I see where you're coming from but I still think the "he's a terrible scrummager most of the time"'is harsh. What about the semi final against NZ, is their pack terrible? There must have been loads of occasions where he's more than held his own against some good operators.

Now, you could say that was ages ago and he's lost it and you could well be right but I'd be willing to roll the dice seeing as he's been such a class operator for the majority of his career. Also scrummaging is just one facet of the game, a big one for sure, but still one facet. Is Sinkler that good of a scrummager? He's never struck me as really solid in that area but this is more going off what other people have said more than anything else.

I think we can probably all agree that ideally you want a good all rounder who can hold their own in the tight and good in the loose but if some of the front row lads can excel in another area other than the scum that it's worth considering them for the 23 imo.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd be willing to roll the dice seeing as he's been such a class operator for the majority of his career. Also scrummaging is just one facet of the game, a big one for sure, but still one facet. Is Sinkler that good of a scrummager? He's never struck me as really solid in that area

This just feels like a deliberate wind up now

 

[ncurd]

I see where you're coming from but I still think the "he's a terrible scrummager most of the time"'is harsh. What about the semi final against NZ, is their pack terrible? There must have been loads of occasions where he's more than held his own against some good operators.

Now, you could say that was ages ago and he's lost it and you could well be right but I'd be willing to roll the dice seeing as he's been such a class operator for the majority of his career. Also scrummaging is just one facet of the game, a big one for sure, but still one facet. Is Sinkler that good of a scrummager? He's never struck me as really solid in that area but this is more going off what other people have said more than anything else.

I think we can probably all agree that ideally you want a good all rounder who can hold their own in the tight and good in the loose but if some of the front row lads can excel in another area other than the scum that it's worth considering them for the 23 imo.

I don't think he's ever "held his own" just not been a complete liability. As noted by many people if England hadn't had a severe case of butterfingers in RWC final we'd have had significantly less scrums and result may have been different. This all said even with less scrums I'd still be very wary of sticking him up against the top looseheads of the game, he costs territory is not points and he's simply not up to it for a while now.

Sinckler on the other hand whilst I wouldn't call him great I also struggle to think of a game where he's made a complete arse of it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

This just feels like a deliberate wind up now

It's honestly not. Always happy to bow to more knowledgable people or willing to look at any stats that disprove my thinking.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't think he's ever "held his own" just not been a complete liability. As noted by many people if England hadn't had a severe case of butterfingers in RWC final we'd have had significantly less scrums and result may have been different. This all said even with less scrums I'd still be very wary of sticking him up against the top looseheads of the game, he costs territory is not points and he's simply not up to it for a while now.

Sinckler on the other hand whilst I wouldn't call him great I also struggle to think of a game where he's made a complete arse of it.

I dunno, maybe I'm just looking at it too simply, I just think if you've got 67 caps for England as a prop and about to go on your 3rd lions tour chances are you're pretty solid in the scrum.

Maybe he's fallen off a cliff and he's done at this level now and I guess we'll find out in a couple of months.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

I dunno, maybe I'm just looking at it too simply, I just think if you've got 67 caps for England as a prop and about to go on your 3rd lions tour chances are you're pretty solid in the scrum.

No.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

As others have said, Mako is either a liability in the scrum, or just about holds his own.

 

[ncurd]

I dunno, maybe I'm just looking at it too simply, I just think if you've got 67 caps for England as a prop and about to go on your 3rd lions tour chances are you're pretty solid in the scrum.

Maybe he's fallen off a cliff and he's done at this level now and I guess we'll find out in a couple of months.

Ben Youngs is the most capped English player of all time....

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ben Youngs is the most capped English player of all time....

Yeah and his service isn't terrible. He's an alright scrum half. Does the basics ok so a bit of a false equivalence imo. If he had the worst service in the world maybe but he's alright.

 

[Welsh Exile]

As others have said, Mako is either a liability in the scrum, or just about holds his own.

WC final aside what are the main standout games where he's been terrible in the scrum and got dominated?

How many scrums was he involved in against NZ in the semi and what about the 2020 6N. It would be good if anyone had anything a bit more concrete other than just opinions. I know that's all any of us have got at the end of the day but still would be good to see

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Marler was first choice in 2020, think mako only played twice,
Can't remember any scrums from the semi but looks like there weren't that many, based on stats, but they were all completed/no penalties

 

[Welsh Exile]

Marler was first choice in 2020, think mako only played twice,
Can't remember any scrums from the semi but looks like there weren't that many, based on stats, but they were all completed/no penalties

I'm finding it hard to find the stats but I'm **** at looking this stuff up.

I vaguely remember England winning a scrum pen in that semi final against NZ but no idea of it was due to Mako or not and even if it was it's a bit of a while ago now.

I dunno, I still don't think he's as bad as you boys make out. Obviously it's not a strength of his but he can't be that bad.

Hopefully it'll be one of those series where there aren't that many scrums. That's half of my thinking. Especially if you're only looking to bring him on around the hour mark but maybe Sutherland is the better shout for the bench.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm finding it hard to find the stats but I'm **** at looking this stuff up.

They're on the official RWC site,
Think it said NZ won 3/3 of their put in, England won 4/4 of ours

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah and his service isn't terrible. He's an alright scrum half. Does the basics ok so a bit of a false equivalence imo. If he had the worst service in the world maybe but he's alright.

That's just it, Ben Youngs is an "alright" scrumhalf, not "most capped England player ever" scrumhalf and yet he has the most caps. Just shows that the number of caps doesn't necessarily correlate to how good a player is or even to how good he is compared to the other options available. We have a great skill of handing out caps in a way that is disproportionate to the talent of the player. Vunipola is like Youngs, he isn't "bad" and more often than not we can cover his weakness and play to his strengths but the problem with that is that as soon as things start to go wrong and you can't cover those weaknesses, they get exposed. Teams and players with distinct weak areas can win many games but some games will just get torn to shreds as it is ruthlessly exploited.

Vunipolas scrummaging has always been a weakness. When he started he was genuinely awful and constantly collapsing. Now he is poor. To be at the best and constantly win a team also needs to reduce the glaring weaknesses in the sides. As long as Mako continues to get significant time in the scrum, that is a significant weakness that can be exploited, as he is clearly not going to improve at this stage.

 

[Welsh Exile]

That's just it, Ben Youngs is an "alright" scrumhalf, not "most capped England player ever" scrumhalf and yet he has the most caps. Just shows that the number of caps doesn't necessarily correlate to how good a player is or even to how good he is compared to the other options available. We have a great skill of handing out caps in a way that is disproportionate to the talent of the player. Vunipola is like Youngs, he isn't "bad" and more often than not we can cover his weakness and play to his strengths but the problem with that is that as soon as things start to go wrong and you can't cover those weaknesses, they get exposed. Teams and players with distinct weak areas can win many games but some games will just get torn to shreds as it is ruthlessly exploited.

Vunipolas scrummaging has always been a weakness. When he started he was genuinely awful and constantly collapsing. Now he is poor. To be at the best and constantly win a team also needs to reduce the glaring weaknesses in the sides. As long as Mako continues to get significant time in the scrum, that is a significant weakness that can be exploited, as he is clearly not going to improve at this stage.

But we weren't taking about the players overall ability (or perceived ability) we were talking about specific aspects of their game.

If we maintain that one of the most important jobs for a prop is scrummaging, and if we are using Young's as a comparison, then for a scrum half, service is as important to a 9 as scrummaging is to a prop.

Young's has not got terrible service. He may have other areas of his game that are weak but in terms of the basics he actually does that quite well and if he didn't he wouldn't have all those caps for England. Which is why I said it's a false equivalence as we were talking about Mako's scrummaging specifically not generally. If Young's service was poor (a 9s bread and butter) then I would've said he had a point bit imo the comparison didn't stack up.