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[2021 Rugby Championship] Round 5 South Africa v New Zealand (25/9/2021)

NZbloke

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That ref was really pedantic, yet didn't award an obvious penalty try... hope that clown doesn't referee the 2nd ABs/Boks match.
 

Kiwiwomble

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That ref was really pedantic, yet didn't award an obvious penalty try... hope that clown doesn't referee the 2nd ABs/Boks match.
I think it would have been a stretch to award the penalty try, often only awarded within 5m and there was still another marker. SO with two passes to make and a marker to beat i think it was still a while from a certain try
 

NZbloke

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Looked a definite penalty try to me, was a deliberate knock down & we had an overlap, plenty of players in support.
 

Kiwiwomble

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Looked a definite penalty try to me, was a deliberate knock down & we had an overlap, plenty of players in support.
i guess the biggest factor against was it was Bridges wing and not only was he having a shocker game hes failed to convert all series...so definitely a long way from a certain try
 

Al Bangor

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At least South Africa made it interesting. I bet they had you New Zealand fans somewhat concerned. ;)
 
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Gay-Guy

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With any sport the more you try things the less likely you are to win but the more likely you are to develop. I remember two extremes at my uni hostel - we had a table tennis table and i would always want to win, so I was disciplined, focused, error free, always playing just below my abilities. And I usually won. Another guy just liked playing around, trying trick shots and fancy things, pushing passed the edge of his abilities. I would beat this guy easily at the start of the year, but by the end of the year he was the best player in the hostel.

personally I’d prefer for a game like this that you just focus on winning, but I think foster wants to keep on developing his players. Certainly they would have gained a lot from this game by trying to play how they want to be able to play, in a tough and tense game, under pressure.

they could have tried to play smarter, and won this game more easily, but there’ll be a game down the line where executing a skill based game under pressure will be the only way we can win.

Interesting post but I’m curious why you say it looks like we are trying to attack crusaders style. I’m guessing you mean brad mooar crusaders days, because it doesn’t look like the crusaders of the last couple of seasons, who rarely play flat, only do so when they have front foot ball and or the defence is disorganized.
Yes that is what I meant...the Crusaders of today who have their front door runners hit the line fast and flat from Hall passing at halfback or Mounga passing at first five. When there is a rush defence coming at you then speed and selection of the pass is crucial if the All Blacks are wanting to have their front door runners hit the line at speed. I don't think the TJ can execute that sort of pass like Smith or Webber or even the Crusaders Hall and Drummond. I also think BB is slightly slow with this compared to Mounga. The All Blacks dropped a lot of ball coming from BB on those first phase strikes...would they have dropped it if they received the ball a micro second earlier aka less pressure? Also whenever there were times to simply shift it due to an overlap out wide the slip second delay from BB put pressure on the players outside to execute.

I am guessing the ABs will take stock and readjust their depth and timing now that they know the pressure that is coming. This is very much a repeat of the Bok/Wallabies games...the first test the Wallabies saw what the Boks brought and the second test they adjusted their depth and timing.
 

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At least South Africa made it interesting. I bet they had you New Zealand fans somewhat concerned. ;)
Definitely. The Boks did everything they said they would do to us...dominating us in the set piece, defensive line forcing us into mistakes, aerial kick and chase pressure on the receiver. The Kiwis could only achieve what they wanted to impose on the Boks for the first 3 minutes.

Test could have gone either way. I thought the Boks could have argued for a suspected high tackle in the last 5 minutes and had a penalty shot at goal which would have put them up by 5 points...then we would have had a real cracker of a finish. If the Boks had dug in deep in those championship minutes and won then their would be a major post mortem for the All Blacks and Fosters coaching ability. I think the All Blacks need to approach the game this Saturday with the perspective that they lost and ask questions how to win the set piece battle again, how to have better ball retention, how to respond to box kicks, better game management etc. Less smiles and more soul searching.
 

Kiwiwomble

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interesting breakdown of the last few minutes, kicking away possession (and not to touch) when you have front foot ball, mid field and with overlaps....wow, the Ab's didn't win this, the Bokke straight up gave it away
 

NZbloke

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i guess the biggest factor against was it was Bridges wing and not only was he having a shocker game hes failed to convert all series...so definitely a long way from a certain try
Yeah, fair point, Bridge had a shocker, he needed to be dragged much earlier than what he was too - a lot of the other ABs made far too many really silly handling errors as well... usually our handling skills are consistently at a very high level, had that been the case there would be a very good reason to give that penalty try.
 

NZbloke

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interesting breakdown of the last few minutes, kicking away possession (and not to touch) when you have front foot ball, mid field and with overlaps....wow, the Ab's didn't win this, the Bokke straight up gave it away
I'm amazed we won that match with all the mistakes we made - & the Boks really restricted their attack by focusing on up & unders, with that type of mindset they were never going to look for space on the outsides to feed their backs... Boks definitely need to have a more positive attitude on attack, as the ABs are not going to drop that many box kicks next time & play so poorly in general.
 
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Umaga's Witness

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Yes that is what I meant...the Crusaders of today who have their front door runners hit the line fast and flat from Hall passing at halfback or Mounga passing at first five. When there is a rush defence coming at you then speed and selection of the pass is crucial if the All Blacks are wanting to have their front door runners hit the line at speed. I don't think the TJ can execute that sort of pass like Smith or Webber or even the Crusaders Hall and Drummond. I also think BB is slightly slow with this compared to Mounga. The All Blacks dropped a lot of ball coming from BB on those first phase strikes...would they have dropped it if they received the ball a micro second earlier aka less pressure? Also whenever there were times to simply shift it due to an overlap out wide the slip second delay from BB put pressure on the players outside to execute.

I am guessing the ABs will take stock and readjust their depth and timing now that they know the pressure that is coming. This is very much a repeat of the Bok/Wallabies games...the first test the Wallabies saw what the Boks brought and the second test they adjusted their depth and timing.
I find that interesting because for the majority of the time that tj and beauden have played at the hurricanes the game plan has been a lot flatter than the crusaders game plan during the same period, but especially the crusaders of the last couple of years don’t play flat, or at least not off first five. Beauden typically receives the ball a lot flatter than mounga I would have thought. And mounga takes his time to release the ball, which is why he gets to use his stepping game compared to beauden who either has to take the line on or get rid of the ball very quickly . I was just talking to someone yesterday who was remarking at how as soon as beauden gets the ball he’s passed it on.
 

Kiwiwomble

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I find that interesting because for the majority of the time that tj and beauden have played at the hurricanes the game plan has been a lot flatter than the crusaders game plan during the same period, but especially the crusaders of the last couple of years don’t play flat, or at least not off first five. Beauden typically receives the ball a lot flatter than mounga I would have thought. And mounga takes his time to release the ball, which is why he gets to use his stepping game compared to beauden who either has to take the line on or get rid of the ball very quickly . I was just talking to someone yesterday who was remarking at how as soon as beauden gets the ball he’s passed it on.
i think thats fair, BB is more likely to fire though a hole at the perfect angle after receiving it at the perfect moment, richie gets it and then steps to make a break. I think thats fire it looked so bad on the weekend TJ and BB trying to play like the old days...but were both so slow, BB was having to hold his run to get the pass and then was just shovelling it on because there was no gap
 

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i think thats fair, BB is more likely to fire though a hole at the perfect angle after receiving it at the perfect moment, richie gets it and then steps to make a break. I think thats fire it looked so bad on the weekend TJ and BB trying to play like the old days...but were both so slow, BB was having to hold his run to get the pass and then was just shovelling it on because there was no gap
This is also the reason BB’s star started to fade when rush D’s became more common and better executed. Starting, from an AB perspective at least, with the Lions tour. As BB tends to stand flatter there is. I longer the space he previously enjoyed. RM regains that space by standing deeper. This is a fairly high level generalisation though, there is a lot more nuance in it than an old slow winger like myself can analyse.
 

Kiwiwomble

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This is also the reason BB’s star started to fade when rush D’s became more common and better executed. Starting, from an AB perspective at least, with the Lions tour. As BB tends to stand flatter there is. I longer the space he previously enjoyed. RM regains that space by standing deeper. This is a fairly high level generalisation though, there is a lot more nuance in it than an old slow winger like myself can analyse.
true, although with some caveats

With smith inside him i think BB can still cause major damage, smith is just the next level when it comes to those pin point bullet passes into a gap, ive always thought BB's pass was too slow, previously he's just made up for it with his feet

The rush defence can also cause richie issues, picking up the ball so much deep really risks getting caught behind the advantage line if he cant step his way into space and no one can do it every time
 

NZbloke

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the reason BB’s star started to fade when rush D’s became more common and better executed. Starting, from an AB perspective at least, with the Lions tour. As BB tends to stand flatter there is. I longer the space he previously enjoyed. RM regains that space by standing deeper. This is a fairly high level generalisation though, there is a lot more nuance in it than an old slow winger like myself can analyse.
Yeah, BB just doesn't read the game well at 10 when the pressure is really on - when getting slow ball from your forwards the rushing defence is even going to apply more pressure on your backline, that's when a 10 needs to show good common sense, drop back a metre or two giving himself more time to execute an accurate kick in behind their defence, they're all basically standing up very flat across the field like a rugby league defence, so there's always going to be a ton of space behind the opposition, the only bloke sweeping at the back is the fullback & he can't cover the whole field... amazes me this tactic isn't executed much more by all teams when every side is trying to strangle the other team defence wise.

Reckon all teams are really guilty of gifting intercept passes & getting their kicks charged down... if they actually thought about what they were doing they would have a quick scan for a split second & take the best option available, if it's not on to execute something, take the tackle, go to ground & set the ball up again.
 

Gay-Guy

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I find that interesting because for the majority of the time that tj and beauden have played at the hurricanes the game plan has been a lot flatter than the crusaders game plan during the same period, but especially the crusaders of the last couple of years don’t play flat, or at least not off first five. Beauden typically receives the ball a lot flatter than mounga I would have thought. And mounga takes his time to release the ball, which is why he gets to use his stepping game compared to beauden who either has to take the line on or get rid of the ball very quickly . I was just talking to someone yesterday who was remarking at how as soon as beauden gets the ball he’s passed it on.
Yes the runners off Hall hit flat while Mounga stands deep behind and when there is go forward ball Mounga will move up flatter and call for it...hitting his runners flat...or looking for the next backdoor option. Crusaders play flat and fast but they choose when to do this whereas BB stood shallow almost the entire game and considering we were not getting go forward ball (accentuated by TJs hesitancy) everyone outside of BB was getting the ball under pressure. BB at times had the right idea to shift it on ASAP considering there were overlaps but starting from a shallow position made the shifting of the ball 50/50.
 

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we were not getting go forward ball (accentuated by TJs hesitancy) everyone outside of BB was getting the ball under pressure.
Can't blame Perenara for slow ball & putting pressure on players outside him - was clear to see many a time our forwards were serving up very slow ball to the backs, putting them under all sorts of pressure, our forwards were bloody poor at the breakdown, didn't get enough numbers there to clean out, in those type situations it was up to BB to analyse the game properly, stand a bit deeper & kick in behind them... even though Mo'unga hasn't had game time for a while would much prefer him to start at 10 in this upcoming match, as he actually thinks about what he's doing when running the ship.
 

Kiwiwomble

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You can blame tj as well as the forwards, it’s his actually ball speed…it just seems to take an age in the air and often lobs to the frost receiver
 

NZbloke

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We know Aaron Smith has got a faster pass than our other halfbacks, but he has also put huge pressure on our backs by trying to be the big hero firing the ball out to them when it's not on to do so - Perenara's pass isn't as bad as you make it out to be... I'm much more concerned that we don't do enough hard yakka in the forwards, cleaning out & our option taking.
 

Kiwiwomble

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We know Aaron Smith has got a faster pass than our other halfbacks, but he has also put huge pressure on our backs by trying to be the big hero firing the ball out to them when it's not on to do so - Perenara's pass isn't as bad as you make it out to be... I'm much more concerned that we don't do enough hard yakka in the forwards, cleaning out & our option taking.
....yeah, think we're going to have to agree to disagree on that, never heard that mentioned as an issue and if anything generates front foot ball from nothing
 

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