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[2021 Six Nations] Wales vs England (27/02/21)

BiggusLaddus

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They were probably better, just couldn't handle fiercer opposition this time.
Borne out by the scoreline. England scored similar in both games, sadly for us, Wales were ~3 times better than New Zealand.

*edit to add, this can be easily confirmed by checking the player ratings in the Walesonline match report
 

Dai Yorkshire

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I almost find it funny how pathetic these toxic social media cretins are. Imagine how **** your life must be that you get satisfaction at sending basically anonymous messages to celebrities who did something you didn't like?
I think it is only a matter of time before these key board knobs will be identified on all on line outlets and measures taken against them.
 

Dai Yorkshire

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We have two very good wingers, but I don't think Liam Williams had his best game, only my opinion of course as he is a good player but the one try that Englands Watson I think scored 1/2P would have stopped in my opinion, there was also a kick he had charged down so I'm hoping for better the next time out or is 1/2p due a recall.
 

MikeTheNative

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There were periods in that game where England played like they did in the semi final against NZ.

When England got some sustained quick ball Wales couldn't cope and England made very good inroads in attack. However that only happened a few times, too many handling errors, silly penalties given away and they still like to kick the ball a lot. England kicked to put pressure on Wales' lineout which faired pretty well actually and that tactic didn't go too well. England kicking contestable balls to catch had a bit of success though.
 

MikeTheNative

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We have two very good wingers, but I don't think Liam Williams had his best game, only my opinion of course as he is a good player but the one try that Englands Watson I think scored 1/2P would have stopped in my opinion, there was also a kick he had charged down so I'm hoping for better the next time out or is 1/2p due a recall.
He like JD2 has been struggling for form and keeping himself fit since the world cup. Speaking of JD2, he still doesn't look fully fit and I would rather play Johnny Williams or Halahollo for the last two games.
 

ncurd

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I'm just thinking about the LRZ knock on try.

So here's the definition of a knock on from the world rugby website.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

All requirements are meant it says as the ball goes forward from his hand and hit the ground. It says nothing about hitting other body parts once it goes forwards he has go gather it before it hits the ground.

Are people arguing the laws in LRZ's favour actually reading them?


Okay heres my main thought to why I'm posting usually if you knock on with an outstretch hand it's deemed an intentional knock on, why is not in this case? LRZ's gather never really looks like it possible or is it simply because he has some minimal degree of control of the ball and bring it towards him.
 

Jashay

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I don't think I've ever seen an attacker penalised for a deliberate knock on. Presumably it's because you're already costing your team possession with just a standard knock on, whereas a defender performing a deliberate knock on is going to be doing it cynically to stop an attack.
 

ragerancher

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I'm just thinking about the LRZ knock on try.

So here's the definition of a knock on from the world rugby website.

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

All requirements are meant it says as the ball goes forward from his hand and hit the ground. It says nothing about hitting other body parts once it goes forwards he has go gather it before it hits the ground.

Are people arguing the laws in LRZ's favour actually reading them?


Okay heres my main thought to why I'm posting usually if you knock on with an outstretch hand it's deemed an intentional knock on, why is not in this case? LRZ's gather never really looks like it possible or is it simply because he has some minimal degree of control of the ball and bring it towards him.

The argument that can be made is that every time a player drops the ball onto their boot, it is the ball travelling forward but not a knock on. Whilst LRZ obviously didn't intend for it to do that, it did still hit his leg below the knee after he knocked it forward and therefore could be deemed a "kick". That would require a decision on if you knock it forward and then hoof it before it touches the ground if that counts as a kick or a knock on. If it's a kick then his try is legal but weird, if it's a knock on then his try is a knock on. It's yet another area of ambiguity.

Personally I'd argue that for it to be classed as a kick, the ball would have to be deliberately dropped directly downwards with a clear intent to kick. Any circumstance where it is knocked forward rather than intentionally dropped on the boot should be a knock on.

I can't actually find anything that defines how a kick in open play should be taken...
 
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ncurd

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The argument that can be made is that every time a player drops the ball onto their boot, it is the ball travelling forward but not a knock on. Whilst LRZ obviously didn't intend for it to do that, it did still hit his leg below the knee after he knocked it forward and therefore could be deemed a "kick". That would require a decision on if you knock it forward and then hoof it before it touches the ground if that counts as a kick or a knock on. If it's a kick then his try is legal but weird, if it's a knock on then his try is a knock on. It's yet another area of ambiguity.

Personally I'd argue that for it to be classed as a kick, the ball would have to be deliberately dropped directly downwards with a clear intent to kick. Any circumstance where it is knocked forward rather than intentionally dropped on the boot should be a knock on.
Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

EDIT: I'd really struggle for anyone to claim he intentionally tried to do that, I mean this is two basic searches on the laws web site for definition of terms.
 

ragerancher

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Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

EDIT: I'd really struggle for anyone to claim he intentionally tried to do that, I mean this is two basic searches on the laws web site for definition of terms.
Where is this definition actually written?
 

ncurd

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ragerancher

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EDIT: Sorry the preview makes it look bad it actually it direct to search for the word kick.

2nd Edit: You can also just find it on defintions page (with a bunch of others) https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/definitions
Ah thanks, that's what I was looking for. LRZ situation could not be defined as a kick then and as the knock on says making contact with the ground or another player after going forwards, the fact it hits his lower leg becomes irrelevant so knock on.
 

ncurd

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Ah thanks, that's what I was looking for. LRZ situation could not be defined as a kick then and as the knock on says making contact with the ground or another player after going forwards, the fact it hits his lower leg becomes irrelevant so knock on.
Yeah I hadn't bother to watch it until yesterday as I was far more interested in the restart stuff. But was also being told its not knock on according to the laws, so I got bored and decided to read them and discovered those saying that hadn't read them.

Just for the "thread" benefit those definitions are the definitions of those terms as used when referenced in the laws they are not simplifications expanded within the laws. Hence why the defintions are in the PDF version of the laws as well (why I bothered checking that I don't know).
 

MikeTheNative

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It looks like the LRZ still is touching the ball (albeit not in control ) until it hit's his thigh then it drops on to his heel and goes backwards. So he kinds of bats it down his leg then accidently kicks it backwards, that's the only way I can see the officials thinking it was ok (I think it was a knock on)
 

Welsh Exile

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I was listening to the Rugby Pod today and Goode was saying that there was a forward pass in the build up to Watsons try so it kind of evens itself out anyway. I must admit I didn’t notice anything at the time and haven’t watched it back but I didn’t know if he has been on the booze or whether there was something in it.
 

dullonien

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It looks like the LRZ still is touching the ball (albeit not in control ) until it hit's his thigh then it drops on to his heel and goes backwards. So he kinds of bats it down his leg then accidently kicks it backwards, that's the only way I can see the officials thinking it was ok (I think it was a knock on)

I was just about to post the same. I also believe it was a knock on and the try should have been disallowed, but for the sake of debate and interrogating the law, it's not obvious that his hand and ball lose contact with each other until it hits his leg and goes back.

I'm not overly keen at looking at incidents in such fine detail though, certainly wouldn't want every 'knock on' interrogated like this. I suppose it wouldn't have if the ref/TMO did thr sensible thing and called a knock on. Doubt a single Welsh supporter would have batted an eye lid!
 

Welsh Exile

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Was good listening to Jim apologise about AWJ, though. He now concedes he should be going on the lions tour as most knew he would anyway.

Bierne at 6 maybe. I think it would be hard to leave him out of the starting 15 at the minute. I’m not sure Gats will start him though I reckon he’ll go.
 

dullonien

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I was listening to the Rugby Pod today and Goode was saying that there was a forward pass in the build up to Watsons try so it kind of evens itself out anyway. I must admit I didn’t notice anything at the time and haven’t watched it back but I didn’t know if he has been on the booze or whether there was something in it.

Is this one of those forward passes that is actually just momentum though? A lot of pro's really struggle with this concept. Honestly can't be bothered to check. I didn't notice anything at the time, whereas LRZ's knock on was pretty obvious!
 

ncurd

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It looks like the LRZ still is touching the ball (albeit not in control ) until it hit's his thigh then it drops on to his heel and goes backwards. So he kinds of bats it down his leg then accidently kicks it backwards, that's the only way I can see the officials thinking it was ok (I think it was a knock on)
I'm not really trying to get the ref's mindset mainly because WR and they have said it was the wrong call. But the guys who went off and read the laws, so had time for real analysis and agreed with officials at the time.

Whilst it was a massive error I do appreciate sometimes refs mess these things up and certainly the on-field ref doesn't have a book to hand at the time.


However as an exercise lets go through that thinking (I appreciate you don't agree with it). Under this I am assuming that we are going to try and claim LRZ has possession of the ball by constantly touch it other he's hit it forward and the constant touching doesn't make a difference.

So first off does he have possession,

Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

Whilst I don't think he ever has control you can make a minor argument he's trying to bring it under control. So sure he has possession until it his his thigh where he looses possession. We've already established it can't be a kick as he has to intentionally kick the ball if he was trying to kick it he isn't trying to bring the ball under control either so its not a kick under the definition of a kick in rugby. He definitely knocks its backward with his calf so the question is foes go forward from his thigh to his calf and honestly on both angles I can't bloody tell and I can't be arsed to look more.



On a slight that doesn't really matter note frame by frame there are definitely moments it looks like he not touch the ball but you can't say definitively.

My interpretation is that even with a fine tooth comb it still looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walk like a duck. There is nothing that screams its a penguin instead.

I was listening to the Rugby Pod today and Goode was saying that there was a forward pass in the build up to Watsons try so it kind of evens itself out anyway. I must admit I didn’t notice anything at the time and haven’t watched it back but I didn’t know if he has been on the booze or whether there was something in it.
I mean scoreboard pressure means these things don't even out. Forward passes get missed all the time just look at "the try" it has a bunch. I don't mind this stuff being missed in real time I do expect a ref to recognise a knock on when he's actually gone to the TMO mind, same with a forward pass.
Honestly doing this for "fun" rather than anything else.
 

ragerancher

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I was just about to post the same. I also believe it was a knock on and the try should have been disallowed, but for the sake of debate and interrogating the law, it's not obvious that his hand and ball lose contact with each other until it hits his leg and goes back.

I'm not overly keen at looking at incidents in such fine detail though, certainly wouldn't want every 'knock on' interrogated like this. I suppose it wouldn't have if the ref/TMO did thr sensible thing and called a knock on. Doubt a single Welsh supporter would have batted an eye lid!
England had a try disallowed as a knock on when the ball fell out of someones hand and he then regathered it against his own thigh during a maul in the semi final against NZ.
 

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