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(2022 Rugby Championship - Round 2) - South Africa v New Zealand (13/8/2022)

Umaga's Witness

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In football the manager hires and fires his own coaching team but he doesn't need any top level approval unless he goes over budget. If his job is under pressure, replacing his assistant won't save him. It's much less political that way.

RE: players wanting to keep Foster: everyone keeps saying he's well liked so yeah maybe they like him as a person. That doesn't necessarily translate into confidence in his coaching abilities. At the very least there's no way the Crusaders in the team think he's better than Razor.
I've never heard anyone say they like him. Players literally say they believe in him, including crusaders like mounga and havili. not that you can read too much into that, sure, but nor is there any evidence to say they don't believe in him, or that the crusaders players believe in razor more. I hardly think the board would pay any credence to the players saying "nah don't fire him, we think he's a nice guy. Plum tree by comparison is a meanie"
 

miccloarch

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but nor is there any evidence to say they don't believe in him, or that the crusaders players believe in razor more
In a tense situation like this where a well-liked coach is under heavy scrutiny, what players do on the field speaks more volume than what they say. The difference in how consistent Mo'unga and co. are for Razor is evidence enough.
 

Umaga's Witness

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In a tense situation like this where a well-liked coach is under heavy scrutiny, what players do on the field speaks more volume than what they say. The difference in how consistent Mo'unga and co. are for Razor is evidence enough.
Except in super rugby they haven't come up against opposition remotely as good as what they are losing to at test level. Every game that mounga plays poorly for instance we have been failing to go forward and the opposition have very Strong rush defence - these are experiences mounga hasn't had at super rugby level. Mounga is consistent for the all blacks when the same conditions are met as to what he gets at super rugby level.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Re: Schmidt, I could definitely see him taking up a short term if offered despite what he's said. Taking his home nation full of players with incredible ball handling skills, which is something he never quite had enough of with Ireland and did incredibly well with with Leinster, would surely be very difficult to turn down.

Equally he's said that he only sleeps 5-10 hours on a match week so maybe a 12-15 month stint would be too much.
 

Kiwiwomble

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we finally plays like a team, actually tried to make some holes, set players up, rather than just shovelling the ball on and expecting someone to do something with it

and that is why dropping BB was the right call...the first real coaching big call fozzie has made....he may be rugby player with god like skills....but he seems to struggle with playing well with others....its akin to selecting the worlds best pole vaulter....they may be the best...but they dont fit in with the 14 other blokes on the field....every so often it works and he will do something amazing all on his own and everyone is all "he's the best"...and ignore the fact the other 14 blokes had no idea what was going on

Savea, in my mind, can be the same although in this game he managed to keep doing his special stuff but fell back in line with the rest of the pack when needed which was good

It was a huge improvement but i would till take another coach, someone who will pick the best team and not just the 15 "best" players

I also thought south africa played very well, i always thought it could swing the other way very easily, who is you right wing? he was making meter at will
 

Frankie123

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Springbok's get way too cocky with selections and not having a plan B. Starting a 3rd string hooker, starting an over the hill Duane fresh off an injury, dropping Nyakane, and moving the worlds best Centre to the wing just so over the hill Le Roux can play fullback was just silly

Box kicks clearly weren't working, yet they refused to do any different. And they certainly are not the fittest team in the world, NZ ran rings around them in that department

All in all though, probably the worst thing for NZ. Everyone knows Foster is holding them back, but not easy to sack coach after a win
 

miccloarch

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Except in super rugby they haven't come up against opposition remotely as good as what they are losing to at test level. Every game that mounga plays poorly for instance we have been failing to go forward and the opposition have very Strong rush defence - these are experiences mounga hasn't had at super rugby level. Mounga is consistent for the all blacks when the same conditions are met as to what he gets at super rugby level.
Bigger picture being in the 3 years since Razor was overlooked for the top job the Crusaders have looked more like All Blacks than the All Blacks. Plenty of different reasons for that but people who weren't alarmed by Fozzy's appointment were dead asleep. What the players say in the media (especially the All Black PR machine) can't be taken at face value. And if what you claim about the players helping to get the assistants out is true, it confirms two things:

1. Fozzy is well-liked. Whether they say it in those words or not. He's been part of the setup for a decade. No surprise there.
2. Loyalty only goes so far. Throwing the assistants under the bus was the easy thing to do. Turns out it was partially the right call, they just had to go one step further and get rid of Fozzy too lol. Razor's forwards coach coming in to save the day is some kind of deep, deep irony.

If the people who promoted Fozzy can't see these things then they don't watch rugby, they don't know what they're doing and/or (as a few of us have suggested from the start) they wanted a predictable yes-man. If they finally now do the right thing and fire Foster they need to go all the way and fire themselves too.
 

TRF_stormer2010

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Bad:
- we don't like to chase games and the moment we went ahead we just dropped off again ITO focus assuming we had a 14 man NZ on the ropes after reeling them back in without actually putting in the effort and allowing NZ to dictate the pace again.

- I see comments from SA posters where you'd think we went from juggernauts to pathetic. I hate that people miss nuance. No, we didn't dominate NZ last week and no, we didn't get thrashed this week despite what the scoreboard yes- its a lot more nuanced and the margins are so small. Its the same with the RWC win vs England where a pass going to hand there or Kolbe not managing to wrap up Lawes was it or Itoje would've put a completely different spin on that game. Fine margins.

- Which gets me to we need to be able to score our own points and not just rely on opposition errors whether forced or no because the margins are so small. I believe we can do it but there seems to be this mindset that we almost refuse to try.

Good:
- I think these last two games have been brilliantly reffed. Not perfect but if you offered me this as a default I'd accept. Gardner perhaps a tad pedantic though I like it like that whilst Pearce perhaps a little bit of hit and miss but you never got the impression the teams are playing with different refs blowing the game for each.

- having been forced to chase the game and route 1 and the box kicks not paying the same dividends we managed to construct a few tries. I hated Am at 14 though but would be very tempted to go with 12 Willemse, 13 Am, 15 Le Roux though I still want to see Gelant given opportunity.

- is it too big an assumption that this game will force us to reconsider the bench both ITO the 6-2 split and arbitrarily swapping front rowers and backrowers for no good reason? Sure, you want to manage your player minutes in a marathon tournament but maybe we just need to focus more fitness again? Vermeulen needs to look at his fitness or is it unfair to expect him to hit the ground running? I'd have assumed if he was cleared to play against NZ that he was up to it? Apparently the bar is set worryingly low for fitness.
 

Five Meters Out

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I thought the AB's victory at Ellis Park had as much to do with poor decisions by the Springbok camp, as it did with how the AB's played.
1. Poor selections.
2. Subbing in the 1st half, (meaning the subbed in AB's, late in the game, were far fresher going into that final 10 minutes.)
3. Players less fired up (the Springboks looked 1 or 2% down on the intensity with which they played the 1st Test.)
4? You might even add "the running game". This breaks the game open and is what the AB's want. Once it becomes all 'razzle dazzle' no one is better than the AB's (except maybe the French??).
 

ChicagoKid

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I thought the AB's victory at Ellis Park had as much to do with poor decisions by the Springbok camp, as it did with how the AB's played.
1. Poor selections.
2. Subbing in the 1st half, (meaning the subbed in AB's, late in the game, were far fresher going into that final 10 minutes.)
3. Players less fired up (the Springboks looked 1 or 2% down on the intensity with which they played the 1st Test.)
4? You might even add "the running game". This breaks the game open and is what the AB's want. Once it becomes all 'razzle dazzle' no one is better than the AB's (except maybe the French??).
Who should they have selected instead of Dweba and Kriel?
 

GoTheNaki

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I think if we don't sack Foster this week, we won't have the opportunity to hire Robertson after the world cup.

We played better, quite clearly better... But I just think it's a farce. I'd be very aware of Argentina... SA left 14 points on the table, they were in it the entire time.
 

Kiwiwomble

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even a broken clock is right twice a day

i'll need to see a few more performances, preferable different gameplans and selections for specific teams, before i regain any faith these coaches know what theyre doing
 

Umaga's Witness

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Re: Schmidt, I could definitely see him taking up a short term if offered despite what he's said. Taking his home nation full of players with incredible ball handling skills, which is something he never quite had enough of with Ireland and did incredibly well with with Leinster, would surely be very difficult to turn down.

Equally he's said that he only sleeps 5-10 hours on a match week so maybe a 12-15 month stint would be too much.
Except if he gets some other role, like he has now, it sounds like he would much prefer that. And I'd imagine nzr would be quite keen, whoever the head coach is, to have Schmidt involved. Although his personality might clash with robertson.
I think if we don't sack Foster this week, we won't have the opportunity to hire Robertson after the world cup.

We played better, quite clearly better... But I just think it's a farce. I'd be very aware of Argentina... SA left 14 points on the table, they were in it the entire time.
I think you are right that it's now or never, he'll need time. I don't think we gave away a single breakdown turnover in that game, that is some quite significant progress, but Ryan will be there with foster or robertson, so it's not necessarily a reason to keep foster. Schmidt might be a reason to keep foster though, because I don't feel like robertson would want Schmidt in his coaching team (although that's just my speculation based on what I have heard about their styles). I Reckon whichever head coach we have we will win the rest of our games this year.

Edit: I didn't read that post right; I thought you said we wouldn't have the opportunity to hire robertson until after the World Cup . Why do you think we won't be able to hire him after the World Cup?
 
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