[2022 Six Nations] Ireland vs Italy (27/02/22)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Does Baird's hit have the "force" required to be a red? He seems to be soaking up the Italian player rather than striking him so to speak.

I thought the first red was borderline, that looks more like a yellow to me.

As far as I'm aware, the force part of the law doesn't specify whether it is inflicted by the defender charging forwards or the attacker charging into them, it's more about the overall severity of the impact. On that basis, there was definite force there (although IIRC Baird was also coming forwards in the tackle)

If the tackle earlier was a red, then that's a red.

 

[Smurfy]

Does Baird's hit have the "force" required to be a red? He seems to be soaking up the Italian player rather than striking him so to speak.

I thought the first red was borderline, that looks more like a yellow to me.

I think that's the case. I think the clip that's posted there is a bit misleading in that with a wider view you can see Baird is all but staionary and doesn't generate any force in the collision. I was surprised that it wasn't brought to the refs attention at the time, but I think it was never more than a potential yellow. I also think, as I said earlier in the thread, that the ref ignored/missed the mitigation in the Italian red that Sheehan definitely, albeit slightly, dipped into the tackle.

I'm not going to even attempt to defend the nonsense that followed on from that, other than to say I'm not sure how World Rugby can address the problem. If you scrap the law you are opening the doors to the abuses we saw in the past, and you can't put refs in the position of deciding if the loss of front rowers is genuine or a tactic to negate the oppositions scrum dominance. Whatever they decide they need to do it quickly.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think yesterday could benefit JC more than anyone else. He had a laboured performance, most worryingly is how little he demands the ball, the 10 is less integral than before in Farrell's team but he still needs to be a consistent attacking player to make it work.

Saying that, he played a game and then got to see Sexton play it better. There's some workons for him but he can literally contrast and compare with Johnny to see how he needs to improve.

I think Murray is more likely to drop out of the 23 than start, although he'll almost certainly be on the bench. I think if Farrell trusts Casey to play a high percentage game he'll be his finisher but he's shown a clear preference to seasoned vets on the bench, POM, Henderson, Murray and Henshaw are a great group to bring on while winning a close game.

My point on Murray is more that the 9 battle is still very close and JGP hasn't been great. Still probably the best option for style but still not great.

On 10 point. That is it. Joey can improve massively but more so needs the others to put pressure on him too.

 

[Jakedood]

I think that's the case. I think the clip that's posted there is a bit misleading in that with a wider view you can see Baird is all but staionary and doesn't generate any force in the collision. I was surprised that it wasn't brought to the refs attention at the time, but I think it was never more than a potential yellow. I also think, as I said earlier in the thread, that the ref ignored/missed the mitigation in the Italian red that Sheehan definitely, albeit slightly, dipped into the tackle.

I'm not going to even attempt to defend the nonsense that followed on from that, other than to say I'm not sure how World Rugby can address the problem. If you scrap the law you are opening the doors to the abuses we saw in the past, and you can't put refs in the position of deciding if the loss of front rowers is genuine or a tactic to negate the oppositions scrum dominance. Whatever they decide they need to do it quickly.

Players usually dip a little, but there needs to be a lot more differential, in that you cant reasonably expect the tackler to make contact, usually in the case of already being tackled by another player. One of the damning things in both clips is just how upright both players are in the tackle, with minimal effort made to hinge at the hips
The Sheehan one would have been even worse if he hadnt led with his arm, but I'd say both should be red cards by the letter of the law, not due to anything malicious but because poor technique has dangered the opposition ball carrier

 

[Which Tyler]

I wonder if it'll be cited?
Feels like we've not had any citings this tournament yet

Gotta say, that looks worse than the red - much more clearly head as the first point of contact, and much less of a dip into the tackle.

Classic case of the law is an ass. I'll bet the ref hated his job yesterday.

Well done to Ita for sticking at it and you can't read anything whatsoever into Ire's performance.

Bet the ref wished he had the option of the much-mooted orange card

 

[Reiser99]

I thought wrapping was secondary now to being bent at the hip, so even if you wrap properly, if you are upright then it is foul play. After that comes force, point of contact and mitigation.

Tbh I think the issue is less what card it should have been and more that it wasn't looked at at all. All people want is consistency. It's never going to be perfect, but at the bare minimum it should have been reviewed, especially when they've already reviewed similar to sent off an Italian player.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

As far as I'm aware, the force part of the law doesn't specify whether it is inflicted by the defender charging forwards or the attacker charging into them, it's more about the overall severity of the impact. On that basis, there was definite force there (although IIRC Baird was also coming forwards in the tackle)

If the tackle earlier was a red, then that's a red.

Was there a world rugby circular or something to that effect? If so it's definitely in the red card region.

The March 2021 guidelines have the degree of danger as the decisive factor for a red card and Direct/indirect contact and high/low force as the consideration (This is just for clarification, I couldn't have told you this yesterday).

For Baird I think the force is definitely between low and high, Baird's only contribution is rotating his shoulder into contact, his feet are planted and he's upright, this rotation really isn't adding much. The +/- 20kg difference is what creates the recoil.

To be honest I have no idea what the state of the laws are currently, Baird's tackle is poor technique but relatively low danger imo and yellow seems appropriate.

I think the Italian tackle is better technique but with a higher degree of danger, he's low and driving as you're taught but once you get that wrong like he did you are involved in a high impact collision to the head/neck.

I think two yellows is probably where I'd want those but had it been red to Italy and yellow to Ireland it wouldn't have been inconsistent.

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I'm finally getting to watch the game through, I actually thought Carbery started well when playing 15 players. I'm just past the red, they're going down to 13 now, and can already see it getting scrappy. If its a case that Carbery couldn't adjust to the changing situation, even though it's substantially easier, that's worrying but not surprising given his game time at all levels. More games should naturally increase IQ and match fitness so hopefully he stays fit. And the lighter second row and back row is clearly producing worse quality ball which doesn't help.

Lowe's start is excellent, he looks assured and dangerous while Hansen appears to be able to handle the more restrictive right wing role also. I think Lowry is about to start playing ball.

The law is an ass but the ref has been handling this excellently so far. I read that he asked the TMO to check Baird's hit so if that's true then the above inconsistency can't be used against him either. I'd take him over Adamson or Gardner all day everyday.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Watching the second half now. Lowry's second try should never have been. Forget the pass, borderline and the ref didn't overrule his own in time decision but before that we got a scrum following a successful choke tackle but Hansen kicked the ball to Italy so it should have gone the other way.

Sexton's ability to use the space has already been a huge improvement on Carbery's 30 mins against 13.