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[2023 Six Nations] England Squad

Old Hooker

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It is being blown out of proportion, but it's also a rookie error from Borthwick.

He could easily have mentioned it without referencing his kids or the closeness of the relationship. Any doubt over whether a player has been picked on merit is always bad and undermines both the player and the coach. This regardless of if it's true. Borthwick should avoid those comments when the focus is on selection. I'm sure he'll have plenty of other opportunities to discuss rugby at grass roots and how professionals can support it and Borthwick needs to learn when is the right time to discuss it.
Exactly. No problems with him disclosing Dunn’s role with his kids as a matter of fact, he just shouldn’t have said the stuff about him being wonderful, a great character and desperate to get back in. It’s no biggie in itself but when the pressure comes on, as it will, it’s just something that could be thrown back at him.


So team for Scotland..I reckon

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 itoje
5 J.Hill
6 Isiekwe / Chessum
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward
I have no idea what the selection will be but I’d love to know what odds you’d have got on that team 6 weeks ago.
 

Noonz

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So team for Scotland..I reckon

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 itoje
5 J.Hill
6 Isiekwe / Chessum
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward
Marchant is a good possibility on the Wing so there is some veteran presence. I have a feeling Manu will get played against Scotland and we'd see Kelly/Lawrence starting for Italy.
 

Lé Ddanno

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I was implying this doesn’t just happen at junior rugby…

….cough, Owen Farrell, cough…..
Tbf it's 8 years since we could make that accusation now.

These days it's back to the English prem's total inability to produce an international quality 12.

(We'll talk about coaches, selection, pundits, journos etc all keeping his balls on their collective chins despite all evidence of talent, ability and form to the contrary later)
 

BrokenWing

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Tbf it's 8 years since we could make that accusation
And the original post said “The good old days of nepotism”

You’re right though, and without Snr there it’s been harder to justify his inclusion at times without being able to say “Oh, must’ve been his dad”
 
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Geordiefalcon

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Exactly. No problems with him disclosing Dunn’s role with his kids as a matter of fact, he just shouldn’t have said the stuff about him being wonderful, a great character and desperate to get back in. It’s no biggie in itself but when the pressure comes on, as it will, it’s just something that could be thrown back at him.



I have no idea what the selection will be but I’d love to know what odds you’d have got on that team 6 weeks ago.
Yeah quite!
 

duncanb

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If George passes protocols he will play . Has time on his side to pass them.
 

Old Hooker

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If George passes protocols he will play . Has time on his side to pass them.
I read that the best scenario is that he wouldn’t be able to do any training until Tuesday and no contact work until Thursday when the team is named.

May not be insurmountable but definitely not ideal. The way things are he’s too important to us to rush him back.
 

TRF_Olyy

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I'm guessing with Blamire called up for him it means he's not in consideration for rd.1 (/not even in camp atm? not sure on the rules on injury replacements)
 

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It would be absolutely ridiculous for them to rush back a player from a concussion \ head injury. I get that in theory if he passes the protocols he could be back. It just flys in the face of the RFU cluster [email protected] about player safety and tackle height in the community game. Amateurs can't tackle above the waiste, but you get knocked out as a pro and you are playing test match rugby a few weeks later. The RFU are wondering why ex-pro's are taking them to court, and the amateurs think the tackle rule is BS. One game for the pro's and one for the plebs.
 

Which Tyler

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It would be absolutely ridiculous for them to rush back a player from a concussion \ head injury. I get that in theory if he passes the protocols he could be back. It just flys in the face of the RFU cluster [email protected] about player safety and tackle height in the community game. Amateurs can't tackle above the waiste, but you get knocked out as a pro and you are playing test match rugby a few weeks later. The RFU are wondering why ex-pro's are taking them to court, and the amateurs think the tackle rule is BS. One game for the pro's and one for the plebs.
Specifically on this - what's your preferred option? deny the professionals top-notch private healthcare? or insist upon top-notch private healthcare for amateurs? or insist on the bluntest of tools for all, with no allowance for nuance?
Bear in mind they've already increased the minimum stand-down for the pro.s by a full week before starting the RTP protocols (as opposed to 2 weeks at amateur level).

The current difference between pro and amateur is 7 days. As far as I can tell, amateurs can gain that extra 7 days by completing the same TRP protocols, overseen by a health professional - meaning that... there's no difference for anyone who can afford to pay a private GP for 5 appointments a day apart (and find one willing to do so).

ETA: No, sorry, they seem to have taken out the ability to buy your way back onto the pitch at the amateur level
 
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Geordiefalcon

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I would not rush George back.
Blamire and Dunn will be just fine...
 

LIONSxv

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I would not rush George back.
Blamire and Dunn will be just fine...
Have Blamire Line Ours improved much over the past few years ?As I know that was the weakest part of his game. He offers considerably more than Dunn outside of the SP
 

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@Which Tyler

The bluntest of tools is creating two different games. With only around 30 clubs and international teams playing potentially the game we see now. If the changes are level 2\3 down.

Most return to play protocols I know of use a graduated return to play between 14 - 25 days with medical sign off. Dependant on the Union, age grade etc.

My point being the message It sends is amateurs 14-25 days graduated return and rules changes. Pro's 12 days and no changes. When in my view everyone should be the same. Rushing people back isn't in my view particularly clever if you are fighting 200 plus pro's in court over the concussion debate.

Personally I'd go for 25 days across the board especially if knocked out as George appeared.
 

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Have Blamire Line Ours improved much over the past few years ?As I know that was the weakest part of his game. He offers considerably more than Dunn outside of the SP
In the form of his career atm, to be fair to him - I'm still a bit cautious until he's kept it up over a longer period, especially with how dodgy it was before, but the signs are positive atm
LCD had terrible darts early on his career and grew into a very capable lineout operator, hopefully Blamire follows the same trajectory
 

Geordiefalcon

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Have Blamire Line Ours improved much over the past few years ?As I know that was the weakest part of his game. He offers considerably more than Dunn outside of the SP
Yes...hes working hard on it. Believe it or not...but De Chaves is statistically the best lock in the league with regards to lineouts... and that has not changed since Blamire took over the starting hooker role.
 

Which Tyler

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@Which Tyler

The bluntest of tools is creating two different games. With only around 30 clubs and international teams playing potentially the game we see now. If the changes are level 2\3 down.

Most return to play protocols I know of use a graduated return to play between 14 - 25 days with medical sign off. Dependant on the Union, age grade etc.

My point being the message It sends is amateurs 14-25 days graduated return and rules changes. Pro's 12 days and no changes. When in my view everyone should be the same. Rushing people back isn't in my view particularly clever if you are fighting 200 plus pro's in court over the concussion debate.
That's... not the RFU guidelines (for adults).
Amateur = 14 days stand down, followed by a 5 phase RTP, each phase being a minimum of 24 hours apart (medical sign-off on the last phase only).
Professional = 7 days stand down, followed by a 5 phase RTP, each phase being a minimum of 24 hours apart; and each phase being overseen by a medical professional.

International recommendations, for all sports - reached by expert consensus.
Amateur = 7 days stand down, followed by a 5 phase RTP, each phase being a minimum of 24 hours apart(medical sign-off on the last phase only).
Professional = 0 day stand down, followed by a 5 phase RTP, each phase being a minimum of 24 hours apart; and each phase being overseen by a medical professional.

Personally I'd go for 25 days across the board especially if knocked out as George appeared.
Out of interest - what's your expertise on the subject?
25 days, even if still not fit to play after 25 weeks?
25 days, even if actually fit after 25 minutes?
25 days, even if your mortgage relies on playing?

1-size fits all, fits nobody.
 

Saintjay

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@Which Tyler


You are failing to see the link between changing the game \ rules at amateur level for player safety and welfare issues. And the perception of then allowing George to play compared to this. I've already acknowledged thems the rule but it's the perception based on the extreme ill will to the RFU.

So for amateurs in rugby it's 19 days? For under 19's it is 23 days. Which is pretty much what I said based on age grade the Union etc 14-25 days.

Here is the IRFU guidance.

Players can only progress to the next stage once they have been symptom free for 24 hours. Adult players must spend at least 24 hours in each stage (21 day minimum to complete GRTP). Those under 20 must spend at least 48 hours in each stage (23 day minimum to complete GRTP)

I play amateur club rugby and I'm on a Rugby Forum Where people have opinions. Unless you can only have opinions here and then comment based on your level of expertise.

25 days, even if still not fit to play after 25 weeks? What do you think as you've asked? My view clearly you shouldn't be playing if concussed. Maybe ask the RFU why it's 19 odd days for amateurs even if not fit to play for 19 months. Or is that why they have GRTP protocols?

25 days, even if actually fit after 25 minutes? As above what's your view.

Based on the 19 - 23 days etc. In my view 25 would be a catch all to avoid litigation etc. 55 amateurs suing the RFU at the moment for example.

25 days, even if your mortgage relies on playing? And again what do you think?

My view is that Pro's are employees and covered by employment law so worst case statutory sick pay applies. Most would be covered by some form of insurance. That or you'd have a lot of long term injured Pro's with second jobs.

Progressive rugby's view via rugby paper.

However, it has been a fundamental concern of Progressive Rugby that return to play following concussion must be at a point when the brain is recovered to a point where it is not at risk, so we ultimately believe the protocol should be extended to 28 days. 21 minimum.

So in my opinion 25 days would be a happy medium at both levels. Again in view of litigation etc.
 
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