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[2023 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 12 February 2023

Farrell was just so average on Sunday. We really needed to see what Smith could bring from half time with that midfield.
ANd not with Farrell at 12.

Maybe he needs to start v Wales.
Not going to happen unless Borthwick drops Farrell as captain or appoints a vice captain who will play for 80 minutes.

Edit: It's why I agree with Dawson, by picking Farrell as captain he's boxed himself in by having to select him and he plays 80 minutes.
 
Not going to happen unless Borthwick drops Farrell as captain or appoints a vice captain who will play for 80 minutes.

Edit: It's why I agree with Dawson, by picking Farrell as captain he's boxed himself in by having to select him and he plays 80 minutes.
Yeah, he should've named a "leadership group" or whatever
Just say something like "Genge, Farrell, Youngs, Slade blah blah are all senior players and will be leading the side, actual match day captain will be on a week by week basis"
 
Yeah, he should've named a "leadership group" or whatever
Just say something like "Genge, Farrell, Youngs, Slade blah blah are all senior players and will be leading the side, actual match day captain will be on a week by week basis"
I thought he would make Genge captain tbh like at Tigers, Genge showed he has what it takes.

Faz C
Genge VC
Slade VC

Likely 1 of the 3 will play 80, or do TCurry as VC.
 
Some England based observations from the game
9 and 10 poor for England. Lawrence and J Willis were great in their comeback games
Itoje much improved
It hasn't quite clicked for Dombrandt and England and has a couple of mistakes in him. He carried and tackled well
We still kick far too much even deep into the opposition t.erritory
England's intensity wained in the second half and we looked tired..is fitness an issue ?
The scrum still doesn't seem right to me
If 90% of our attacking game is based on crash ball at 12 or up and under or the occasional grubber, what's the point of slade at 13? Can't remember him getting the ball in the second half
Their is little or no faith to run the ball back from our own half. We need to mix up the kick chase with the occasional piece of running play.
A lot of the time Slade was actually at inside centre and Lawrence was outside him. The numbers on their backs dont always relate to the positions they are playing.
 
Yeah, he should've named a "leadership group" or whatever
Just say something like "Genge, Farrell, Youngs, Slade blah blah are all senior players and will be leading the side, actual match day captain will be on a week by week basis"
Disagree a bit here. I think there has to be a named captain who is the clear authority figure for other players to look up to and be the central link between players and coaching staff. They should also be one of the first names on the team sheet.

Problem is that I just don't think Farrell is that man for a host of reasons. Lawes possibly might be, but he's been off games. Genge is the other obvious one. Generally prefer the captain in the forwards - it's just an extra pressure on a 10 who's already responsible for running the plays and, usually, goal kicking.

If a captain comes off there should be a number of senior players able to lead the team for 20 or 25 minutes, regardless of whether they have VC by their name. Itoje and Curry now have a lot of experience and usually play the full 80. George is also perfectly capable of going the distance, likewise Genge, it's just unthinking habit that front rowers usually get subbed.

If performance wise or tactically Borthwick feels that Farrell should make way, he shouldn't hesitate, C or not.
 
Disagree a bit here. I think there has to be a named captain who is the clear authority figure for other players to look up to and be the central link between players and coaching staff. They should also be one of the first names on the team sheet.
I agree in general but it's a new coach coming in who hasn't been involved in the setup for years, would've been well within his rights not to name a captain straight away
 
Do you reckon Jones' autocratic approach killed the groups leadership or could having so many different clubs contributing to the national squad be a bigger obstacle?

It doesn't seem to be a problem with other nations, and France tend to always benefit from a large Toulouse contingent in this regards.
 
Do you reckon Jones' autocratic approach killed the groups leadership or could having so many different clubs contributing to the national squad be a bigger obstacle?

It doesn't seem to be a problem with other nations, and France tend to always benefit from a large Toulouse contingent in this regards.

Jones, yes. But the main problem is Spencer, Luatua, Yeandle, Lewies, Ludlow, Liebenburg, Rogerson, Welch and Ross.

The only club captains in the national set up are Farrell and Ludlam only one of which is a regular starter.

Captaincy / leadership is v important. Just like any other skill you have a natural amount of ability but you'll only maximise that talent by repetition, experience and learning from mistakes at club level. Fair play to Jones - he recognised this in Hartley (who wasn't educated at an English public school….), but there have been precious few candidates since.
 
You mean just after Farrell had smacked him in the face
View attachment 16074View attachment 16075View attachment 16076View attachment 16077

Never do tell the whole story do you?
The problem with posts like this is that this very same possible unconscious/conscious hatred of the English seems to be affecting refs, tmos and the media.

For example is their a chance in hell that a player would do that to Sexton or DuPont with no in game review. I'd bet my mortgage the episode would be reviewed. I'm not suggesting a red card would issued (which it could of done) however the ref would of stopped the game and reviewed it

Then we have an England try caulked off for obstruction, yet Italy do possibly worse on Dan Cole and it's allowed to stand.

I'm not making excuses for England currently not been very good. However we do at least deserve a level playing field. I think some of the non English fans forget how important English rugby is the coffers of their own associations
 
A lot of the time Slade was actually at inside centre and Lawrence was outside him. The numbers on their backs dont always relate to the positions they are playing.
Yeah I'm fully aware of that. Still doesn't change the fact that if your only tactic is crash ball or up and under their is little point playing him. He might as well play two ball carriers
 
Jones, yes. But the main problem is Spencer, Luatua, Yeandle, Lewies, Ludlow, Liebenburg, Rogerson, Welch and Ross.

The only club captains in the national set up are Farrell and Ludlam only one of which is a regular starter.

Captaincy / leadership is v important. Just like any other skill you have a natural amount of ability but you'll only maximise that talent by repetition, experience and learning from mistakes at club level. Fair play to Jones - he recognised this in Hartley (who wasn't educated at an English public school….), but there have been precious few candidates since.
Warning: this post is very tangential but its a topic I'm very interested in!

Nice to see that written so clearly, it was something I was thinking about since the same topic was mentioned last week.

I've heard that Cullen and Lancaster in Leinster are obsessed with leadership and treat it like a core skill same as passing or tackling that can be improved across the squad. They have the players do leadership tests multiple times a year. Luke McGrath is so highly rated within the squad in this regard to the point that he'll be a one club man without ever being an established international, which is more or less unheard of these days.

It's such a huge challenge for Borthwick though, without any influence over the English clubs he has to develop leaders from the limited weeks he has with the squad each year. That coupled with a lack of obvious natural leaders might make it his toughest task on a long list of tough tasks currently.

It's interesting that you mention Hartley not being privately educated, obviously Genge was the same and I think Farrell only went to a fee paying school for his senior years? I think guys who break the mould like this tend to naturally be good leaders but it also speaks to the total lack of decelopment with other players who should be starting to take an elevated position. Itoje, Steward and, before getting dropped, Smith all come to mind - Itoje seems to have gone backwards as a leader and the other two still act like young lads only breaking out, they're both approaching 20 caps.

As a comparison here Sexton, POM, Ringrose, Beirne, Keenan, Ryan and Henderson are all part of the Irish leadership group and privately educated along with Furlong and Earls who weren't. There's a few on that list who I wouldn't have down as natural leaders at all and it's all down to development and encouragement.

Not much point to this post other than the English set up being a bit naive to the importance of leaders under Jones, and that players who more or less have a spot in the 23 nailed down it should be an extra curricular area of focus for them to develop their games further.
 
Only time there is a good atmosphere at Twickenham is for the Army v Navy game. Let's be honest, it never matches Cardiff on international days
Nah mate, Cardiff's an awful place to visit as an away supporter. I've always felt welcome at other six nations grounds but the millenium stadium always feels clicky and unfriendly to me.
 
Nah mate, Cardiff's an awful place to visit as an away supporter. I've always felt welcome at other six nations grounds but the millenium stadium always feels clicky and unfriendly to me.
Really? I've never felt comfortable at Twickenham. Even as an Englishman, I feel like a character from an Orwell novel, visiting a foreign land.
 
Not much point to this post other than the English set up being a bit naive to the importance of leaders under Jones.
Why would you want to develop leaders who might question you, when you have the perfect yes man in Owen Farrell?
 

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