[2023 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 4 February 2023

[BPM]

I'm sure they do give a **** about England but maybe they are not very good?. Easiest game out of the way for us, tournament starts next week. Really need to back this away win up with a home win against Wales. Same team again.

I see this crap regularly … yet we're called arrogant?

 

[stus768]

Where are the full match replays? Can’t seem to find them but don’t know if I’m just being dense?

 

[Le Frére Alpha]

I see this crap regularly … yet we're called arrogant?

I am extremely arrogant.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I am extremely arrogant.

I’m easily the best at being arrogant

 

[AlRums]

I see this crap regularly … yet we're called arrogant?

Ahem and this is just average, every year the English fans belittle the Scots, but it's been backfiring the last 6 years (with one exception)

We've definitely got this. We're putting 20+ points on the Scots. Pointless even hosting the match tbh. Scotland is finishing fifth

 

[die_mole]

I’m easily the best at being arrogant

#neverlost a six nations

 

[TommiG88]

Right I’m over it. Drunk me took over on Saturday evening.

Re-watched the game. In parts England we’re good, in parts we were horrid. The midfield just doesn’t work with Farrell at 12. I thought OHC had a solid debut. I’m unsure of the back row still, think it may have been a bit too lightweight.

Scotland were solid and efficient with moments of brilliance.

 

[retired9]

Right I’m over it. Drunk me took over on Saturday evening.

Re-watched the game. In parts England we’re good, in parts we were horrid. The midfield just doesn’t work with Farrell at 12. I thought OHC had a solid debut. I’m unsure of the back row still, think it may have been a bit too lightweight.

Scotland were solid and efficient with moments of brilliance.

I would agree with your assessment, England were not that bad especially at the beginning. A very short amount of time with new coaching staff is not going to produce a miracle. I would also say that Scotland were very very focused in this game and played extremely well. Most other Scotlands would have probably lost that game even though England were not especially good in parts.

I have thought for a long time that Farrell was not really a 12, it is a bit of an niche role where you actually need to know what you are doing to make the attack work. I think there is an Eddie hangover of trying to have 2 10s because, well just because.

There was a spell when Farell was out injured either last year or previously and englands backs were in a proper mess. I think some of you are being quite harsh on him, Saturday wasn't his best showing granted but he has a lot to offer. Smith I was 50/50 on, his kick pass for the try was excellent but to be honest, I think he plays second to an in from Farrell and you only need 1 FH on the field.

Scotlands defence and passing were outstanding, it wasn't flashy stuff at times but it was effective and they played with confidence and belief. The scrum was a mixed bag, I feel having Zander back will help. Have to back this up against Wales or it's all a bit of a flashhthe pan.

 

[TSPopinjay]

Smith was really bad yesterday, as was Russell, really don't see how anyone sees those two as close to world class.

This is a quite remarkable take re. Russell. Saturday wasn’t his most flashy performance, and he got caught out in the first half a couple of times, but it was quite clear that he was deliberately playing the pass at the last second to open up space and commit an English defender (thereby leaving a hole in the defensive line).

His distribution, particularly in the second half, was outstanding; crisp and measured. He is always involved in Scotland’s best attacks and makes the opposition defence panic. He is every bit a world class 10.

 

[Geordiefalcon]

Right I’m over it. Drunk me took over on Saturday evening.

Re-watched the game. In parts England we’re good, in parts we were horrid. The midfield just doesn’t work with Farrell at 12. I thought OHC had a solid debut. I’m unsure of the back row still, think it may have been a bit too lightweight.

Scotland were solid and efficient with moments of brilliance.

We just dont have any young 6'5 18 stone powerhouse destructive actual 6's who are in top form though.... oh hang on.....

 

[Le Frére Alpha]

This is a quite remarkable take re. Russell. Saturday wasn’t his most flashy performance, and he got caught out in the first half a couple of times, but it was quite clear that he was deliberately playing the pass at the last second to open up space and commit an English defender (thereby leaving a hole in the defensive line).

His distribution, particularly in the second half, was outstanding; crisp and measured. He is always involved in Scotland’s best attacks and makes the opposition defence panic. He is every bit a world class 10.

Trust me, I don't think Flashy performances make a 10 world class!

He kicked about three or four balls out on the full and got caught in possession needlessly multiple times. Himself and Hogg gave England every opportunity they needed to win that game despite being behind a strong performing pack but England couldn't capitalise. Russell wasn't even Scotland's best halfback.

I think Scotland shouod be quite disappointed that they had to rely on world class, outlier, moments from Duhan Van de Merwe to win that game because it doesn't show much progress, they had the tools to control that game and with England playing a kicking game that suited them perfectly they still failed to do so. Ireland and France won't be losing sleep watching that to say the least and Wales will fancy their chances.

Also, world class players tend to win, the only starting 10 in the competition who hasn't won more than Russell is Marcus Smith, that includes two 10s, 7 and 8 years younger than him in Ntamack and Garbisi. He's also never beaten Sexton in a match as far as I'm aware. How is that the CV of a world class player at 30 years old?

 

[Which Tyler]

Also, world class players tend to win, the only starting 10 in the competition who hasn't won more than Russell is Marcus Smith, that includes two 10s, 7 and 8 years younger than him in Ntamack and Garbisi. He's also never beaten Sexton in a match as far as I'm aware. How is that the CV of a world class player at 30 years old?

Harsh.
Rugby is a team game, there's only so much that any 1 player can do if the rest of the team aren't up to it.
eg. Domingo or Parisi for Italy were world class back in the day, even though they weren't very winning.

My definitions:
World Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their world at the Rugby Galactic Cup (typically top 1-3 in the world at that position)
International Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their nation at the Rugby World Cup (typically top 1-3 in the nation at that position)
Club Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their club at the World Club Cup (Champions Cup / Super rugby) (typically top 1-3 in the club at that position)

Anyone playing down a level should elevate that team (so a world class player should elevate their national team; an international class player should elevate their club team; a club class player should elevate their lower-league team)

 

[TSPopinjay]

Also, world class players tend to win, the only starting 10 in the competition who hasn't won more than Russell is Marcus Smith, that includes two 10s, 7 and 8 years younger than him in Ntamack and Garbisi. He's also never beaten Sexton in a match as far as I'm aware. How is that the CV of a world class player at 30 years old?

Disagree on the first couple paragraphs, but interested to know why you hold Russell responsible for Scotland not winning games? Does this mean one cannot be world class if they are part of an average team?

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Are Smith & Farrell rugby's Lampard & Gerrard?

Six Nations Rugby Special pundits Sam Warburton and John Barclay question the wisdom of England coach Steve Borthwick picking both Marcus Smith and Owen Farrell in his backline.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are Smith & Farrell rugby's Lampard & Gerrard?

Six Nations Rugby Special pundits Sam Warburton and John Barclay question the wisdom of England coach Steve Borthwick picking both Marcus Smith and Owen Farrell in his backline.

www.bbc.co.uk

What does that mean?

 

[Le Frére Alpha]

Harsh.
Rugby is a team game, there's only so much that any 1 player can do if the rest of the team aren't up to it.
eg. Domingo or Parisi for Italy were world class back in the day, even though they weren't very winning.

My definitions:
World Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their world at the Rugby Galactic Cup (typically top 1-3 in the world at that position)
International Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their nation at the Rugby World Cup (typically top 1-3 in the nation at that position)
Club Class: Wouldn't look out of place representing their club at the World Club Cup (Champions Cup / Super rugby) (typically top 1-3 in the club at that position)

Anyone playing down a level should elevate that team (so a world class player should elevate their national team; an international class player should elevate their club team; a club class player should elevate their lower-league team)

Disagree on the first couple paragraphs, but interested to know why you hold Russell responsible for Scotland not winning games? Does this mean one cannot be world class if they are part of an average team?

Dominguez won 4 French Championships, Parisse won two. Russell has a single URC, never won 4 games in a 6n or a Top 14/Heineken Cup in perfectly capable sides playing in the most influential position on the pitch.

Paolo Garbisi has won more than him.

He's perfectly comfortable playing at international level and he's up to the standard, I won't deny that. But part of what makes a world class player, particularly a 10, is a winning mentality, I've never once been convinced he has that.

Edit: Just on that last paragraph, I don't think it's a criticism of the man, he clearly has a lot of fun playing rugby and I reckon he enjoys it and treats it less like a job than Johnny Sexton for example. Tiger Woods and Rory Mcilroy have similar levels of God given talent, Tiger was obsessive, and Rory wanted balance in his life. Rory seems the far happier person and I reckon Russell, like that, is doing what's best for him.

 

[TommiG88]

We just dont have any young 6'5 18 stone powerhouse destructive actual 6's who are in top form though.... oh hang on.....

I would have liked to have seen something like;

Hill / J Willis
Earl / J Willis
T Willis / Dombrandt

 

[Which Tyler]

Dominguez won 4 French Championships, Parisse won two. Russell has a single URC, never won 4 games in a 6n or a Top 14/Heineken Cup in perfectly capable sides playing in the most influential position on the pitch.

Dominguez and Parisi were surrounded by better teams.
Which is my point.

As an aside, I will never judge someone's standing on the national stage by their performance on the club stage. It's not their club performances that marked those two as world class players.

I'm not arguing that Russell is world class - he clearly isn't by my definitions; but judging an individual by how good their team-mates are is... weird to me.

 

[Jashay]

What does that mean?

Lampard and Gerrard were very good players who never worked well when they played together in the England shirt. The justification I heard for it was that they essentially played in the exact same way, so having both of them in was redundant and left the midfield lacking on other areas.

So I guess the implication here is that they see both Smith and Farrell as excellent players, but aren't convinced that the team needs 2 FH.

 

[Geordiefalcon]

I would have liked to have seen something like;

Hill / J Willis
Earl / J Willis
T Willis / Dombrandt

To be fair Ludlum played well...but Curry was like a rabbit in the headlights. He got rag dolled a few times. BUT he has been playing very well for Sale so i understand his selection. But with Sale he has some monstrous power and size around him...that he didnt have on Saturday.

Dombrandt....not great...HOWEVER....i can see it working with some beef around him.

Hill and Willis...well that would be quite a flanker option. Both physical And Willis exceptional breakdown skills also.
That would allow Dombrandt to be a bit more floating as he does for Quins...but dont forget Dombrandt is very good at getting turnovers aswell.

I know i bore people when i go on about Hill...hes not the saviour by end means...he just brings a bit of what we're missing to this team some uncompromising physicality with and without the ball. Hes also a Captain / Leader.