A great big Munster thread

[Groundhog]

To be fair Owen Farrell might be available soon....

 

[sugary tae]

I think Munster's history of I'll thought jokers (save torkula ) made the shite storyline slightly believable tho muff. Very obvious theres a lot more emphasis on youth so far this year. Even already you can it. However good Harry byrne is (and I think he's a future international) I suspect it's highly unlikely he'd move ahead of our own lads of same age group just yet.
I'd swear blind at this stage it'll be goggin starting with scans covering 10/12 as a sub.


Very obvious that more than a few journos get decent clickbait out of sticking the boot into Munster. A story of Munster not developing their own/saffer journeyman is a modern day go to story. A modern version of the Munster salt of earth v leinster posh soft boys of 2000-2009. There's a lot of bandwagon rugby fans of all hues here. I mean how much traction has he gotten over the Byrne non story.... all over every forum. Journalists in being gobshite shocker

 

[sugary tae]

With the internationals rested for the interpros we'll see some interesting lineups

Hopefully we see LOC Coombes x 2, jack o Sullivan Healy Casey Daly Nash get plenty of minutes. Every year someone really puts their hand up with leavy ringrose larmour and Wycherley making an impact in the last 3 years.

 

[Amiga500]

Is wee Joey crocked again?

 

[Leinster Fan]

Judging off his Instagram yes. Haven't bothered to find any actual details out though.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Are the knives starting to come out for Johann van Graan? Following on from Brendan Fanning intimating that the relationship between the head coach and Peter O'Mahony isn't the best, Hugh Farrelly does the same in the Mail On Sunday. It's outlined in the above clip where the journalist doesn't expressly say he was speaking to senior players but it's clear that he has been. It would be disappointing if the players went to a journalist before they went to the head coach with their concerns.

Munster can turn a negative (almost certain failure to qualify for the quarter final) into a positive of sorts next weekend. The game against Ospreys is a freebie to try some younger players. If players like Ben Healy, Craig Casey, Keynan Knox, Jack O'Sullivan and Fineen Wycherley are in the European start, get them significant minutes next week. They're Munster's future.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Are the knives starting to come out for Johann van Graan? Following on from Brendan Fanning intimating that the relationship between the head coach and Peter O'Mahony isn't the best, Hugh Farrelly does the same in the Mail On Sunday. It's outlined in the above clip where the journalist doesn't expressly say he was speaking to senior players but it's clear that he has been. It would be disappointing if the players went to a journalist before they went to the head coach with their concerns.

Munster can turn a negative (almost certain failure to qualify for the quarter final) into a positive of sorts next weekend. The game against Ospreys is a freebie to try some younger players. If players like Ben Healy, Craig Casey, Keynan Knox, Jack O'Sullivan and Fineen Wycherley are in the European start, get them significant minutes next week. They're Munster's future.

The start of Leinster's current success came in the game against Bath when they trusted the young players after being knocked out. Hopefully Munster will do the same, especially as they're playing a team so dire that they could probably beat them with an U23 team.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'd be looking to get rid of JVG. Even for the the sake of the national team, Munster don't play rugby that allows their players shine and build confidence.

Jack O'Donoghue is the only guy really setting himself apart from the rest and even then his performances wouldn't be anything new at Leinster. Can't remember last time a Munster player had a run like Cooney has had the last 15 months or Carty had last season. Now that the results aren't coming (they won't win a Pro 14) it's time to bin him.

 

[profitius]

I'd say JVG is a bluffer. Nice guy but SA's version of Bernard Jackman. That's the impression I get from looking at performances, tactics, conservative (fearful would be more accurate) selections, lack of faith in youth etc. I might be wrong and this season was always going to be about building towards next season.


Munster Contracts
(Robbed from thomond2006(boards))

Kevin O'Byrne 2020
Rhys Marshall 2021
Niall Scannell 2021

Diarmuid Barron Year 2
Eoghan Clarke Year 2

James Cronin 2021
Dave Kilcoyne 2020
Liam O'Connor 2020
Jeremy Loughman 2020

James French Year 2
Josh Wycherley Year 2

Stephen Archer 2020
John Ryan 2022
Brian Scott 2020
Ciaran Parker 2020

Keynan Knox Year 3 & 2022

Tadhg Beirne 2022
Billy Holland 2020
Jean Kleyn 2022
Sean O'Connor 2020
Darren O'Shea 2020
Fineen Wycherley 2021

Thomas Ahern Year 2
Paddy Kelly Year 1
Eoin O'Connor Year 1

Arno Botha 2020
Gavin Coombes 2021
Chris Cloete 2022
Tommy O'Donnell 2021
Jack O'Donoghue 2021
Peter O'Mahony 2021
Conor Oliver 2020
CJ Stander 2021

Jack Daly Year 2
John Hodnett Year 1
Jack O'Sullivan Year 3

Craig Casey 2021
Neil Cronin 2021
Nick McCarthy 2021
Conor Murray 2022

Jack Stafford Year 3

Tyler Bleyendaal 2021
Joey Carbery 2022
JJ Hanrahan 2021

Jake Flannery Year 1
Ben Healy Year 2

Sam Arnold 2020
Shane Daly 2021
Chris Farrell 2022
Dan Goggin 2020
Rory Scannell 2021

Sean French Year 2
Alex McHenry Year 3

Andrew Conway 2020
Keith Earls 2021
Mike Haley 2021
Calvin Nash 2021
Darren Sweetnam 2021
Alex Wootton 2021

Liam Coombes Year 3
Alan Tynan Year 3
Jonathan Wren Year 2


NIQ: Botha, Cloete and I'm not sure about Knox


My predicted transfers at end of season.

OUT:
Ciaran Parker
Darren O'Shea
Sean O'Connor
Arno Botha
Connor Oliver
Sam Arnold

From Academy:
Alex McHeny
Alan Tynan
Jack Stafford


IN:
Academy Promotions:
Dairmuid Barron
Keynan Knox
Tom Ahern
Jack O'Sullivan
Ben Healy
Liam Coombes

Signings:
RG Snyman
Damien De Allende

 

[munstermuffin]

I think people need to be a bit easy on JVG.
He's had 2 new coaches who have had very little time with players to implement a new game. Next season was always the test.
But reality is players are playing who aren't at level needed, injuries and form too.

And we have tried blood new younger guys to be fair lads like Jack O Sullivan, Coombes x2, Daly amongst a few. But reality is some are not up to it. Others like Healy and Casey will be ramped up now and Knox also.

But next season I think is the real test. The flight home was like a death but reality is the Racing home game and Sarries away game were 3points lost that were vital.

 

[sugary tae]

I don't get the calling for jvg stuff tbh. We need continuity of coach and a long term plan. What coaches do what can be sorted. Chopping n changing does fark all when the issues are personal based. We've a bran new forwards coach and a big change around.

Fully fit were not that far away at all imo. We threw out the Penney gameplan far too early. We need to accept the pain and make clever long term decisions. In my opinion we have possibly over relied on 4/5 key guys to carry us to hec sf after sf. Realistically a few of those are in a post rwc poor phase of form. Beirne and carbery being out hurt us a lot for a fast game like Yesterday

Get back into form and slowly build for next year. Remember how long it took Connacht to upskill pre2016 and the hidings they took in Europe as a result.
Continue the progression of 6-8 young lads. Casey Healy Coombes Knox Daly Wycherley and jos in particular need to be fast tracked. All will add a huge amount to us in the long run.

Look to clever recruitment but be ruthless with our own squad. Unfair to name them but there are 4 or more lads in the squad who just aren't at the races.
Recruitment can't be just DDA and RG.

I notice the Irish qualified rumour of Matt Gallagher from sarries. Asking the question can he jump ahead of wooton Nash etc. Conway and Earls will either be at camp Andy and we need quality additions. Not all needs to be expensive superstars.

We probably need more in the front row if I'm honest.

 

[Groundhog]

About as frustrated as I've ever been watching Munster, but agree calling for Van Grann's head is harsh. He hasn't had a set coaching team around him for a year yet. Do I believe he's a top tier coach? Well I didn't really think it when he signed and we haven't exactly gone forward since, but he deserves a year though and the squad needs consistency in coaching. A carousel is bad for the club and we have a very good supporting cast in Rowntree and Lancaster.
Some of our players aren't up to it and we probably all know who they are. No one can fault the effort or professionalism of our players, but that isn't good enough for silverware. Some guys are good enough and have gone missing in this campaign. The world cup has had the opposite effect on our squad than it did in Leinster. That said I think reactions on some sites (not here where I've agreed with all comments) are OTT. We're nowhere near the depths of despair the likes of Ulster had a few years back and our squad is a whole lot more talented than it has been in previous years. We have guys in the academy that can make the step. Not near what Leinster can field on any given day at any given position but not a bad crop. I still think we're in a healthy enough position a few positions aside, and the signing of De Allende and Snyman look on the money and should instantly add to our team in areas of need. Also shout out to our fire sale signing from Sarries The big issue moving forward is complete bum form, game plan naivety and very little on field leadership when we're losing. Discipline seems to go out the window whenever we are pressured in the 22 and the headless chickens appear on defence.
I'd like to see how some younger players go this year. Fully attack the league while rotating in several fringe guys with the actual ability to step up (Knox, O'Sullivan, Casey, Wycherley (probably at 6), Hodnett, French, Daly) and find out sooner rather than later whether they can actually push for jerseys. That doesn't mean run an academy side every week but try players alongside more seasoned players rather than flinging them into a **** show like the Edinburgh game.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

What disappoints me about Munster this year is this was to be the season where it all clicked. Key players in their prime, others like Andrew Conway, Joey Carbery, Tadhg Beirne and Chris Farrell kicking on and a quality coaching staff. It's been nowhere near good enough of late.

30somethings Keith Earls, Peter O'Mahony, CJ Stander (30 in a couple of months), Dave Kilcoyne and Conor Murray will be well past their peak if Munster have to go through another rebuild. What will the excuses be next season? This year it's that new coaches are bedding in, next year it'll be the coaches are great but players are past their best.

There's the nucleus of a really good team there but there are too many passengers getting far too much game time. Without singling anyone out, look at the pack and replacement options which played yesterday. Most are are out of form while some aren't close to being good enough if you want to compete at the top of the club game. Dave Kilcoyne is the glaring exception.

Youth needs to be promoted because the talent is there. There was talk during the summer that Leinster were pursuing Craig Casey hard. He's had 78 minutes for Mnster this season. Do you think Leinster would have used him so sparingly had he moved? That the Munster head coach won't pick young players enough is a legitimate gripe.

Johann van Graan has undoubtedly improved the Munster squad. Has he improved their performances?

 

[Amiga500]

Better to lose developing youngsters than lose flogging tired old bodies.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just on youngsters that haven't played.

Casey - Made debut but lets not forget start of his season was hampered with injuries.
Healy - Yes maybe should have seen more time
O'Sullivan- Has taken his chances and will progress but who should he have been ahead in backrow.
Coombes x2 - Both got chances and mixed with injury
Knox - Has played alot and will be more involved
Wycherley - Only lost out weekend as he is on RTP
Daly - Played probably as much as any of our backs.

Like anyone I'm forgetting. Diarmuid Barron got some time but not at Pro14 level yet

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

When fit, Craig Casey should have been getting his game instead of Neil Cronin and at least sharing with Nick McCarthy.

The 6-2 bench splits are harming Ben Healy. Even if he's not starting, more 15 minute cameos would be hugely beneficial to him.

Jack O'Sullivan should be ahead of Chris Cloete and Arno Botha.

I won't speak about the Coombes' because I don't know enough about them.

No major issue with how they're using Fineen Wycherley and Keynan Knox. Start Wycherley next weekend and have Knox on then bench, coming on with 30 to go. Where's the benefit in picking Stephen Archer and Billy Holland; good servants to Munster but past their best.

Shane Daly deserved more than 1 minute off the bench last weekend given how Mike Haley was playing. It smacks of conservatism.

 

[munstermuffin]

But on Billy Holland. Who could you play instead last weekend. The 6.2. Split was to cater for injuries.

When fit Casey did get selected ahead of McCarthy and Cronin. Jack O Sullivan only returned fully in December and got chances and will get in sooner rather than later

 

[sugary tae]

6-2 splits say far more about our pack tbh snoop in my opinion. We've not enough power so need all the impact we can get. That said Healy needs games. 9 and 10 more than any position need minutes. Probably doesn't help to have several outhalves who have all had injury issues needing time to bed them in. This is jj first season I've seen him fully fit.

Any word on hodnett wren and flannery. All Looked the biz in the u20s

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

But on Billy Holland. Who could you play instead last weekend. The 6.2. Split was to cater for injuries.

It's a chicken and egg scenario. Munster had no choice but to start Billy Holland last week because there were no other options. There were no other options because Munster don't select young players often enough in other games! Using Leinster as an example, despite having Scott Fardy, James Ryan and Devin Toner in the second row, Ross Molony, Ryan Baird and Josh Murphy are also getting lots of game time. Last season Jack Dunne played quite a bit. When players get injured (like Ryan at the moment), others are capable of stepping up.

Is Jack O'Sullivan in the European Cup squad? I'd have had him benching last Sunday.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's a chicken and egg scenario. Munster had no choice but to start Billy Holland last week because there were no other options. There were no other options because Munster don't select young players often enough in other games! Using Leinster as an example, despite having Scott Fardy, James Ryan and Devin Toner in the second row, Ross Molony, Ryan Baird and Josh Murphy are also getting lots of game time. Last season Jack Dunne played quite a bit. When players get injured (like Ryan at the moment), others are capable of stepping up.

Is Jack O'Sullivan in the European Cup squad? I'd have had him benching last Sunday.

Jack is coming back from a serious knee injury. He has had a great last 2 weeks but hadn't done enough.

On the locks I'd disagree. Billy has been playing very well and deserved spot. But we haven't played youth there as we don't have alot. Like Leinster will have a better pick due to more schools at a higher level. Like if you look at lock we are extremely light and it is easy to break in there. Wycherley was doing that and would've been in 23 if fit. But even then he is very small for a lock. Bs Leinster at Christmas Leinster had 4 forwards I think taller than our tallest. Like there is a side here people forget. For some positions it's fine saying throw youth in but realistically the youth is not there.
Like another side of it is how many Munster prospects have went away and forged ahead too. Off the top of my head Conor Fitzgerald is the only one I'd say. So that shows maybe some are not good enough. Like Larkham and Rowntree will judge better after this season and both have had to learn with squad rotation restrictions and World Cup hampwring a clear pre season to implement plans. Add in a few of our older lads are bang off form and JJ is not a European 10. We had handicapped blinkers on us from start so it was always uphill.

As in Snoop I'd ask do you follow Munster Schools or even AIL. You'd see there bery few options there