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A Political Thread pt. 2

The Oggmonster

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I watched a couple of Farage's videos and the way he referred to Albanians as if they're sub human scum will no doubt lead to them (many of whom have been living in the UK legally and paying tax etc) suffering from racial abuse from the right wing extreme nationalist loonies/thickies and he knows this full well. Perhaps Dua Lipa accepting Albanian citizenship this week was her way of showing them her support.
 

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I know it's not the point he's making, he's going for the white genocide belief that we are being outbred and migrated out of existence. It is true that the proportion of white people in the west is dropping as a proportion of the total population, in the same way it is dropping as a proportion of the global population. However pointing out minor incorrect points on the numbers is fighting back on the wrong front. Even if he is technically incorrect now, it will be correct in the not too distant future. Pushing back on the exact number is dancing around addressing the actual point he is making, namely that a non-white population is inherently bad. The rebutting of what he said there seems unwilling to go for the main and important message, instead dancing around a pointless technicality.

There is also the flip side of those being unwilling to accept that there could ever be anything wrong with having a large segment of the population whose mentality is completely alien to other parts of the population. Historically it has always ended in problems. To take some hypothetical examples, a massive influx of Chinese who believe in mass censorship and unwavering fealty to China would have a huge negative effect on the country. An influx of Islamic extremists who believe in the imposition of Sharia law and violent extremism to achieve those aims would also have a massive negative effect on the country. A load of far right Russian nationalists who are huge advocates of fracturing the west and having us at war with each other would have a negative effect. On a more moderate level, a massive influx of people who are unwilling to learn English, oppose British laws, seek to remove various aspects of British life and form completely excluded enclaves are also detrimental to society. Immigration and diversity are not automatically good, there still needs to be a basic buy-in to the ideals we as a country hold.

So Farage presents the side that treats anyone and anything different as automatically bad, and arguing over a technicality is pointless as it doesn't address the main issue. However arguing the main issue by simply denying it could ever cause any sorts of problems is itself just as bad. Farage needs to be called out for his assumption it is all bad but not with a blanket denial it is never bad and anyone who says otherwise must be racist.
I suppose you’re making the point from a white English national and your point is fair enough.

From an ethnic minority who was born and brought up in this country I had no choice but to accept the English values and language. At the expense of my own ethnic heritage and language. But have felt my entire life in this country certain treatment that I will never truly be accepted as an English national because of the colour of my skin.

I recall when I was back packing in Australia and speaking to one English couple way back in 2002 what they thought about back home. They were worked for the police but would not divulge it and I had to guess that was there occupations.

But they also made the point back then about coming across certain sections referring to
Muslim populations who would not assimilate with English society, either through learning the language and rejecting . And their frustrations with this.

The Muslims I have come across in my daily life have been born here - either through when at school or work. So they were like me but can’t say any of their background rejected and would assimilate into English society. But then I live in an affluent south eastern home county rather than inner city or where this couple were from Bradford.

In terms of fear of Chinese immigrants - most of them will actually be coming to UK to get away from the censorship and oppression of the CCP.

Russians I came across who are working or moved here are just too **** scared of Putin and losing their visa getting sent back. And they were the ones with money.

Yes, demographics are changing in this country and Farage is using Trump’s playbook IMO to play on English ethnic national fears, just as he did with Brexit.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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I suppose you’re making the point from a white English national and your point is fair enough.

From an ethnic minority who was born and brought up in this country I had no choice but to accept the English values and language. At the expense of my own ethnic heritage and language. But have felt my entire life in this country certain treatment that I will never truly be accepted as an English national because of the colour of my skin.

I recall when I was back packing in Australia and speaking to one English couple way back in 2002 what they thought about back home. They were worked for the police but would not divulge it and I had to guess that was there occupations.

But they also made the point back then about coming across certain sections referring to
Muslim populations who would not assimilate with English society, either through learning the language and rejecting . And their frustrations with this.

The Muslims I have come across in my daily life have been born here - either through when at school or work. So they were like me but can’t say any of their background rejected and would assimilate into English society. But then I live in an affluent south eastern home county rather than inner city or where this couple were from Bradford.

In terms of fear of Chinese immigrants - most of them will actually be coming to UK to get away from the censorship and oppression of the CCP.

Russians I came across who are working or moved here are just too **** scared of Putin and losing their visa getting sent back. And they were the ones with money.

Yes, demographics are changing in this country and Farage is using Trump’s playbook IMO to play on English ethnic national fears, just as he did with Brexit.
Maybe I should clarify as you missed what I was getting at a bit.

It's less about every must be exactly the same as English culture and have no differences and more about not having something that comes directly in conflict with that. For example I know Muslims who obviously don't eat pork and don't particularly like others eating it, however they also realise that it is widely accepted in this country and so allow it. I would never demand Muslims must eat pork but by extension they must also realise that it is acceptable for others. That arrangement of mutual co-existence is fine. However if you have Muslim immigrants who then demand that other non-Muslims stop eating pork and that pork should be banned for everyone, this is ceased to be a point of difference and is now a point of conflict and imposition. Obviously the eating or non-eating of pork is a relatively trivial matter but that's more what I'm getting at, when people immigrate whose views are in direct conflict with what the general British / western views are. More extreme would be something like the demand for Sharia courts or using them in substitute of the actual legal system, that's no longer a point of bringing diversity and instead is a point of bringing conflict. That does nothing to enrich society.

Again there is a reason I specified Chinese immigrants with those views. Chinese immigrants in general are no bad by default, however ones with those specific views actually are bad. Likewise Russians by default are not bad but those with those specific views are. This is more what I'm driving at, it's not the race or nationality of the person that really matters and judging by that is false. However there ARE groups out there with views that directly conflict with this country and who would very clearly not provide any benefit to the country, nor should we welcome such people in the name of diversity. Chinese are perfectly welcome, Chinese who desire us to be subservient to China? No. Russians are welcome, Russians who want to see the destruction of the west? No. The UK is apparently the hotbed of Islamic extremism in the west, that is in part due to things like online influence but is also in part due to people who came here with those extreme views and either acted on them themselves or instilled them in others.

Hence my point is don't argue about a pointless technicality of whether the numbers are correct now or in 10 years, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Instead an argument needs to be made about what contributes to a diverse society in a beneficial way and what doesn't. Diversity done right is good, diversity for the sheer hell of it isn't.

It's like the position that a society that tolerates absolutely everything, including the most extreme views, will inevitably fall to those extreme views. Nationalism should not be used as a blanket denial of anyone who isn't a white Brit from participating in our society but diversity should not be used as a blanket denial of the fact that there are people in the world that actually will no offer anything to our society and we should not welcome. It just seems the debate has gone to the extremes, either everyone is terrible and we shouldn't let any non-whites in or any desire to control who comes in immediately makes you racist. There is a sensible middle ground that both sides seem to keep veering away from.

It should also be noted that attempting to destroy the cultural identity of people who have moved here and are perfectly productive and integrated members of society is just as wrong.
 

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Maybe I should clarify as you missed what I was getting at a bit. It's less about every must be exactly the same as English culture and have no differences and more about not having something that comes directly in conflict with that. For example I know Muslims who obviously don't eat pork and don't particularly like others eating it, however they also realise that it is widely accepted in this country and so allow it. I would never demand Muslims must eat pork but by extension they must also realise that it is acceptable for others. That arrangement of mutual co-existence is fine. However if you have Muslim immigrants who then demand that other non-Muslims stop eating pork and that pork should be banned for everyone, this is ceased to be a point of difference and is now a point of conflict and imposition. Obviously the eating or non-eating of pork is a relatively trivial matter but that's more what I'm getting at, when people immigrate whose views are in direct conflict with what the general British / western views are. More extreme would be something like the demand for Sharia courts or using them in substitute of the actual legal system, that's no longer a point of bringing diversity and instead is a point of bringing conflict. That does nothing to enrich society. Again there is a reason I specified Chinese immigrants with those views. Chinese immigrants in general are no bad by default, however ones with those specific views actually are bad. Likewise Russians by default are not bad but those with those specific views are. This is more what I'm driving at, it's not the race or nationality of the person that really matters and judging by that is false. However there ARE groups out there with views that directly conflict with this country and who would very clearly not provide any benefit to the country, nor should we welcome such people in the name of diversity. Chinese are perfectly welcome, Chinese who desire us to be subservient to China? No. Russians are welcome, Russians who want to see the destruction of the west? No. The UK is apparently the hotbed of Islamic extremism in the west, that is in part due to things like online influence but is also in part due to people who came here with those extreme views and either acted on them themselves or instilled them in others. Hence my point is don't argue about a pointless technicality of whether the numbers are correct now or in 10 years, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Instead an argument needs to be made about what contributes to a diverse society in a beneficial way and what doesn't. Diversity done right is good, diversity for the sheer hell of it isn't. It's like the position that a society that tolerates absolutely everything, including the most extreme views, will inevitably fall to those extreme views. Nationalism should not be used as a blanket denial of anyone who isn't a white Brit from participating in our society but diversity should not be used as a blanket denial of the fact that there are people in the world that actually will no offer anything to our society and we should not welcome. It just seems the debate has gone to the extremes, either everyone is terrible and we shouldn't let any non-whites in or any desire to control who comes in immediately makes you racist. There is a sensible middle ground that both sides seem to keep veering away from. It should also be noted that attempting to destroy the cultural identity of people who have moved here and are perfectly productive and integrated members of society is just as wrong.

I understand what you are getting at - multiculturalism within the context of British culture and values but not to the extent extremists reject those values and try and impose theirs on Britain.

My dad has pro China views and he’s been here since the 1970s. I disagree with him vehemently on it. But he poses zero threat to the cultural fabric of English society.

You give the example of Muslims not eating pork and objecting to if some may wish to ban it for everyone? But based on what? How long have Jews been part of British society? And they don’t eat pork and there is no hint they wish to ban it for everyone.

On hot bed of Islamic extremism. I do think that moderate Muslims really do need to take a leading part in this and routing the extremist views within the Muslim community. I would also say that the enacting of Sharia law is again a fear played on by the likes of BNP and UKIP. There may, however, be use of elements Sharia Law within the Muslim community - but how do you police that and force that within British law if those enforcing it and being subject to it, for fear of personal reprisals? That has to be moderate Muslims changing the more extreme elements within their community.

I just think the issue of extreme views of immigrants adversely affect British culture and imposing their views/laws is overblown and that that is the line most would draw the line at. It is what the likes of Farage playing on to the “don’t change our English identity.” Part of why Brexit succeeded by playing on the fears Turkey would join.

But Part and parcel of diversity is that minority within ethnic groups do not want to be part of English / British culture; they do not want to learn English - they are just here for the work/bring up family, stay within their community and then will choose to retire back to their original homeland. Countless HK Chinese who have been part of the takeaway trade have done this. But as long as they obey and follow the laws of the land they live in, it is in my view acceptable. But equally there are those who want to stay and remain a lawful part of society.

Farage is arguing but manipulating the census results on technical points but it is his rhetoric underlying it to stir things up which is objectionable to me. It’s an indirect form racism all the same. Although he’s not specifically saying it It is his push back against diversity and protection of the English and ergo English ethnic identity.

Had he just said “ look our white English identity is being threatened here by too many people of colour outbreeding us and coming over and sooner or later we will be outnumbered - we have to do something about it.” There would be riots and it would be equivalent of the Powell’s “Rivers of blood” speech. Winning Brexit has put Farage on a pedestal.
 

Ragey Erasmus

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The Tories really have zero integrity, Johnson still standing to be an MP!? If he wins it would also really show just how little regard many Tory voters have for basic decency, honesty and integrity. This turd should have been completely unelectable by now.
 

The Oggmonster

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The Tories really have zero integrity, Johnson still standing to be an MP!? If he wins it would also really show just how little regard many Tory voters have for basic decency, honesty and integrity. This turd should have been completely unelectable by now.

I read somewhere that he and Rees Mogg are already plotting on how to oust Sunak. He probably thinks he can be PM again.
 

Which Tyler

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He's gonna get rightly busted by the Privileges Committee for repeatedly lying to the House, suspended for more than 10 days, and then subsequently recalled by his constituents for a by-election. Which he loses to Count Binface.

I may need to reduce my med.s though
 

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Maybe I should clarify as you missed what I was getting at a bit.

It's less about every must be exactly the same as English culture and have no differences and more about not having something that comes directly in conflict with that. For example I know Muslims who obviously don't eat pork and don't particularly like others eating it, however they also realise that it is widely accepted in this country and so allow it. I would never demand Muslims must eat pork but by extension they must also realise that it is acceptable for others. That arrangement of mutual co-existence is fine. However if you have Muslim immigrants who then demand that other non-Muslims stop eating pork and that pork should be banned for everyone, this is ceased to be a point of difference and is now a point of conflict and imposition. Obviously the eating or non-eating of pork is a relatively trivial matter but that's more what I'm getting at, when people immigrate whose views are in direct conflict with what the general British / western views are. More extreme would be something like the demand for Sharia courts or using them in substitute of the actual legal system, that's no longer a point of bringing diversity and instead is a point of bringing conflict. That does nothing to enrich society.

Again there is a reason I specified Chinese immigrants with those views. Chinese immigrants in general are no bad by default, however ones with those specific views actually are bad. Likewise Russians by default are not bad but those with those specific views are. This is more what I'm driving at, it's not the race or nationality of the person that really matters and judging by that is false. However there ARE groups out there with views that directly conflict with this country and who would very clearly not provide any benefit to the country, nor should we welcome such people in the name of diversity. Chinese are perfectly welcome, Chinese who desire us to be subservient to China? No. Russians are welcome, Russians who want to see the destruction of the west? No. The UK is apparently the hotbed of Islamic extremism in the west, that is in part due to things like online influence but is also in part due to people who came here with those extreme views and either acted on them themselves or instilled them in others.

Hence my point is don't argue about a pointless technicality of whether the numbers are correct now or in 10 years, it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Instead an argument needs to be made about what contributes to a diverse society in a beneficial way and what doesn't. Diversity done right is good, diversity for the sheer hell of it isn't.

It's like the position that a society that tolerates absolutely everything, including the most extreme views, will inevitably fall to those extreme views. Nationalism should not be used as a blanket denial of anyone who isn't a white Brit from participating in our society but diversity should not be used as a blanket denial of the fact that there are people in the world that actually will no offer anything to our society and we should not welcome. It just seems the debate has gone to the extremes, either everyone is terrible and we shouldn't let any non-whites in or any desire to control who comes in immediately makes you racist. There is a sensible middle ground that both sides seem to keep veering away from.

It should also be noted that attempting to destroy the cultural identity of people who have moved here and are perfectly productive and integrated members of society is just as wrong.
I have to say I disagree with your idea of giving creadance to the idea that being overwhelmed by migrant populations that have opposing views to the country they are entering is ever an actualy possibility in reality. Basically all those examples would rather stay in their own region, CCP supporters in china believe China is eden so why would they ever leave? Pro putin Russians are generally taken care of in russia, why leave? etc... why would they move somewhere to impose their own world view, and if they did they dont have the resources to actually do such a thing. The only people with the capital to do that and make a real difference in culture aren't the ones who come here and if they wanted ot do such a thing they already would have. The ones coming here are coming to make their lives better and thus accept that their own cultures have flaws.

The large muslim population that tend to enclave is also a direct result of an acceptance of this bigotry in the first place, a lot of people moved over due to historical empire reasons or were welcomed for lack of manpower reasons and thus their family moved with over generations, only to be met generally with racism from the greater population in the first place which in turn just results in turning to their own people for kindness.

Recognizing something that is simply impossible from a logistical and influence standpoint gives the idea undeserved legitimacy; this was done over Brexit and fears of Turkey joining, many points before it, with the BBC and other outlets not understanding that unbias journalism isn't giving a 50/50 split to just unfactual arguments. Aknowledging it as a valid point just leads to more warryness of foreigners and thus racism when they arrive. It gets really dangerous when you consider we are on the verge of a wave of climate refugees and a population that in some quarters is happy enough to see boats in the channel carrying children etc sunk.

I personally think accepting the premise jsut leads to a legitimising of the dehumanising of foreigners rather than seeing them for what they are, not radical muslims coming over to impose shiria law, not sleeper CCP agents, instead people that are realy poor that simply want to improve their life and will go by any means to do it. Humanizing in my opinion is the only way to avoid this, rather than legitimizing operant points of view.
 
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Ragey Erasmus

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I have to say I disagree with your idea of giving creadance to the idea that being overwhelmed by migrant populations that have opposing views to the country they are entering is ever an actualy possibility in reality. Basically all those examples would rather stay in their own region, CCP supporters in china believe China is eden so why would they ever leave? Pro putin Russians are generally taken care of in russia, why leave? etc... why would they move somewhere to impose their own world view, and if they did they dont have the resources to actually do such a thing. The only people with the capital to do that and make a real difference in culture aren't the ones who come here and if they wanted ot do such a thing they already would have. The ones coming here are coming to make their lives better and thus accept that their own cultures have flaws.

The large muslim population that tend to enclave is also a direct result of an acceptance of this bigotry in the first place, a lot of people moved over due to historical empire reasons or were welcomed for lack of manpower reasons and thus their family moved with over generations, only to be met generally with racism from the greater population in the first place which in turn just results in turning to their own people for kindness.

Recognizing something that is simply impossible from a logistical and influence standpoint gives the idea undeserved legitimacy; this was done over Brexit and fears of Turkey joining, many points before it, with the BBC and other outlets not understanding that unbias journalism isn't giving a 50/50 split to just unfactual arguments. Aknowledging it as a valid point just leads to more warryness of foreigners and thus racism when they arrive. It gets really dangerous when you consider we are on the verge of a wave of climate refugees and a population that in some quarters is happy enough to see boats in the channel carrying children etc sunk.

I personally think accepting the premise jsut leads to a legitimising of the dehumanising of foreigners rather than seeing them for what they are, not radical muslims coming over to impose shiria law, not sleeper CCP agents, instead people that are realy poor that simply want to improve their life and will go by any means to do it. Humanizing in my opinion is the only way to avoid this, rather than legitimizing operant points of view.
Those are extreme examples but it is not a stretch to say there are people who go to a country and have no interest whatsoever in contributing to that country. Look at all the British who form little Britains in Spain for example. I doubt they could claim to have been forced into it by prejudice. In reality it's more about sticking with what you are familiar with. The issue is that can carry through the generations if people don't mix outside that enclave. Most people do mix and by 2nd and 3rd generation they consider both the enclave and the rest of the country as their home, but for some they live in a country they don't really consider home, other than a smaller area that is more like what they left. It doesn't have to be malicious, it's just human nature. It's definitely a thing. The point is any example that as given could be dismissed. Also you are missing the premise entirely, it's not that we should be wary of people from x or y or who look like z at all, it's about what the individuals can contribute regardless of where they are from.

Also things like religious extremism or people with strong, conflicting loyalties to the nation they left are not unheard of. The argument that there is no immigrant who isn't a good immigrant is quite clearly just as false as all immigrants are bad immigrants.
 

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This sums up the furore over the whole Lady Hussey saga.

I would think - why don’t you just come out and ask “what is your ethnicity.” Often I would just pre-empt them to say where my parents were from and I was born here. End of conversation.
 
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The Oggmonster

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This sums up the furore over the whole Lady Hussey saga.

I would think - why don’t you just come out and ask “what is your ethnicity.” Often I would just pre-empt them to say where my parents were from and I was born here. End of o conversation.

I find it hard to get my head around this whole 'ladies in waiting' thing. Basically toffs being paid a salary to be the Queen's mate. It just makes me more in favour of a considerably slimmed down monarchy (without all these hangers on) if we are going to have monarchy at all.

It sounds like Buckingham palace needs to roll out some diversity training and be far more proactive when it comes to preventing and dealing with racism.
 
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ncurd

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This sums up the furore over the whole Lady Hussey saga.

I would think - why don’t you just come out and ask “what is your ethnicity.” Often I would just pre-empt them to say where my parents were from and I was born here. End of o conversation.
I wouldn't ask unless the person bought it up and probably would ask where is your family from? But as noted context of a conversation where were talking about ancestral roots. I work with a whole of Eastern White Europeans never have I ever thought about asking them where are from only when it comes up in conversation. One guy I've worked with for 4.5 years still don't know where he grew up just doesn't have any of the British accents.
 

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I find it hard to get my head around this whole 'ladies in waiting' thing. Basically toffs being paid a salary to be the Queen's mate. It just makes me more in favour of a considerably slimmed down monarchy (without all these hangers on) if we are going to have monarchy at all.

It sounds like Buckingham palace needs to roll out some diversity training and be far more proactive when it comes to preventing and dealing with racism.
That’s the thing the monarchy are not a diverse family. We could see that from when Megan married Harry and the stories of how she was treated. Very difficult for a family born from such wealth and privilege to change their mentality- born to rule without accountability. Prince Phillip was a clear racist who hid it under the veneer of lightning the mood with his jokes.

Hence it doesn’t surprise me the Royals would surround themselves with people with a similar background and mentality to them.

But this example with Lady Hussey I think represents a wider issue within British society. I perceive that we are better than say the USA but within all levels of our society it is still there. I personally think it will always be there to some degree and there is no magic solution to eradicate it.
 

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I wouldn't ask unless the person bought it up and probably would ask where is your family from? But as noted context of a conversation where were talking about ancestral roots. I work with a whole of Eastern White Europeans never have I ever thought about asking them where are from only when it comes up in conversation. One guy I've worked with for 4.5 years still don't know where he grew up just doesn't have any of the British accents.
Yes, that’s because you have the good grace and decorum not to. Not everyone I come across has. I personally don’t mind just being asked but those who have asked just seem to ask but without really getting to what to they really want to know.

It got to the point I was just guessing and then questioning my own identity and resenting them insinuating that “oh you speak with an English accent but you’re not really English/British.” It’s a reminder that I am not really accepted fundamentally because there is a mentality
Who can’t accept that nationality and ethnicity are not one of the same, especially here in the UK.
 

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For me, with my white-male privilege, it depends on how the question is asked.
"Where are you from?" Is asking me where I personally come from, which is currently Gloucestershire, but by upbringing is Wiltshire, so either of those, or simply "the Westcountry" is a perfectly acceptable answer to a perfectly acceptable question.
My name is Irish, and I would consider something like "Is that an Irish name? Does your family come from there?" to be a reasonable question (albeit one that would have raised warning flags 30+ years ago). However, <looks at name tag> "No, where IRELAND are you from" is insulting and demeaning as they're using the word "you" to mean "people who aren't you" and discounting that I come from the Westcountry.

Of course, Lady H doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on refusing to accept the answer to her question as being valid, despite warnings in the subsequent answers.
 

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For me, with my white-male privilege, it depends on how the question is asked.
"Where are you from?" Is asking me where I personally come from, which is currently Gloucestershire, but by upbringing is Wiltshire, so either of those, or simply "the Westcountry" is a perfectly acceptable answer to a perfectly acceptable question.
My name is Irish, and I would consider something like "Is that an Irish name? Does your family come from there?" to be a reasonable question (albeit one that would have raised warning flags 30+ years ago). However, <looks at name tag> "No, where IRELAND are you from" is insulting and demeaning as they're using the word "you" to mean "people who aren't you" and discounting that I come from the Westcountry.
Yeah, but being white there isn't an undertone of racism. If she had said where in Britain are you from then it's no issue. Saying where are you from with no context heavily implies you think the person is an immigrant or not British and is primarily based on the colour of their skin.


BBC did a sketch which sums up what the question is asking perfectly.

 

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