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A Political Thread pt. 2

noah_jo

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Theres a couple of decent reasons to criticize the CPTPP (lack of US membership and potentially opening ourselves up to legal action further down the line if we continue to work towards decarbonisation), but the map looking funny is not one of them...

I'm not really sure what the point you're trying to critique it on is?
 

ncurd

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Theres a couple of decent reasons to criticize the CPTPP (lack of US membership and potentially opening ourselves up to legal action further down the line if we continue to work towards decarbonisation), but the map looking funny is not one of them...

I'm not really sure what the point you're trying to critique it on is?
I think its more the fact we are trying to replace the EU with a trading partnership that is geographically around the Pacific Ocean and thus on the other side of the world. Its complete nonsence.
 

noah_jo

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I think its more the fact we are trying to replace the EU with a trading partnership that is geographically around the Pacific Ocean and thus on the other side of the world. Its complete nonsence.
It's not a like for like replacement though is it? It's one of a huge number of trade deals (including one with the EU) that pursue that "global Britain" initiative. International trade has always been a fundamental part of that plan

Looking at it as "trying to replace" the EU is just a misunderstanding of the intentions really
 

ncurd

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It's not a like for like replacement though is it? It's one of a huge number of trade deals (including one with the EU) that pursue that "global Britain" initiative. International trade has always been a fundamental part of that plan

Looking at it as "trying to replace" the EU is just a misunderstanding of the intentions really
Yeah but the dudes trying to sell it as that look this is so much better than EU because well frankly ********.

Have we actually got a trade deal yet with anyone that was better than the ones we had by being in the EU with that country?
 

RedruthRFC

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noah_jo

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Yeah but the dudes trying to sell it as that look this is so much better than EU because well frankly ********.

Have we actually got a trade deal yet with anyone that was better than the ones we had by being in the EU with that country?
Depends on the criteria. The point he is making is that it is a free trade area first and foremost - which obviously the EU isn't. Because that was the main focus of criticism in regards to the EU, a free trade area that isn't masquerading as a state is obviously much better if that's a prime focus. Nobody is trying to argue that we need the CPTPP and that's it beause that is just blatantly untrue...
"Okay Google, show me the places hardest to ship goods to from the UK."

I saw a Tweet the other day following up on the success of our deal to export cheese to Japan. A resident posted a photo from their local supermarket showing British cheddar a bit more than three times the price of Aussie cheddar.
Ah ok shall we just not trade with anywhere more than an hour flight then? It's wildly frustrating to see the same people who have argued for years that Brexit = insular nationalism (even though the whole "global britain" initiative made crystal clear that wasn't the government's intention), criticise attempts to enhance international trade as frivolous...
 

ncurd

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Depends on the criteria. The point he is making is that it is a free trade area first and foremost - which obviously the EU isn't. Because that was the main focus of criticism in regards to the EU, a free trade area that isn't masquerading as a state is obviously much better if that's a prime focus. Nobody is trying to argue that we need the CPTPP and that's it beause that is just blatantly untrue...
I mean I'd fundamentally disagree the EU is primarily is a free trade area, everything it does is about facilitating free trade and removing barriers to trade. Its just a far more complex thing than 'no tariffs'.
 

RedruthRFC

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Ah ok shall we just not trade with anywhere more than an hour flight then? It's wildly frustrating to see the same people who have argued for years that Brexit = insular nationalism (even though the whole "global britain" initiative made crystal clear that wasn't the government's intention), criticise attempts to enhance international trade as frivolous...
That's reductio ad absurdum and willfully ignores the logistics that underpin the point that you're chosing to ignore. Surely you can acknowledge that it is preferable to be exporting bulky, low cost goods to places closer to home.
 

noah_jo

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I mean I'd fundamentally disagree the EU is primarily is a free trade area, everything it does is about facilitating free trade and removing barriers to trade. Its just a far more complex thing than 'no tariffs'.
Ah yeah, cause all free trade areas have all the branches of a state, a flag etc... That's why there was a fundmental pivot from both sides of the aisle in the UK when the EU stopped being first and foremost a trade area - it describes itself as "an economic and political union" first and foremost, not a free trade area.

Regardless of whether you acknowledge that, can you still see why then those people advocating for it believe the CPTPP is an argeement much more inkeeping with the principles of both enabling free trade, whilst also preserving national sovreignty. Even then, the CPTPP is not perfect on the latter point, and as I mentioned earlier, is likely to lead to the UK facing some lawsuits in 20/25 years, which is why it has been criticised by some conservatives - yet, it is still more in keeping with those principles than the EU is.

That's reductio ad absurdum and willfully ignores the logistics that underpin the point that you're chosing to ignore. Surely you can acknowledge that it is preferable to be exporting bulky, low cost goods to places closer to home.
Obviously I acknowledge there is logistical issues with all international trade, especially on the other side of the world. My frustration is that at this point, a decent chunk of the populus seems to rubbish any progress as entirely frivolous - which is just cyclical negativity with the end result being the UK becoming that insular, protectionist, fringe island state that that same chunk of people accused the Brexiteers of trying to make it.
 

ncurd

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Ah yeah, cause all free trade areas have all the branches of a state, a flag etc... That's why there was a fundmental pivot from both sides of the aisle in the UK when the EU stopped being first and foremost a trade area - it describes itself as "an economic and political union" first and foremost, not a free trade area.
Yes because economic union and free trade are completely separate concepts.

Okay here's the question, what part of the EU isn't about facilitating free trade?
 

Tigs Man

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In this day and age of global trading distance shouldn't be that big a factor tbf.
Although from a brexit POV it's pretty hard to argue for that given it's not really a nationalists POV.
 

RedruthRFC

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Obviously I acknowledge there is logistical issues with all international trade, especially on the other side of the world. My frustration is that at this point, a decent chunk of the populus seems to rubbish any progress as entirely frivolous - which is just cyclical negativity with the end result being the UK becoming that insular, protectionist, fringe island state that that same chunk of people accused the Brexiteers of trying to make it.
Given the bare faced lies that have now been exposed as such time and time again, I don't understand why you think that it's unreasonable for new, wild claims to be treated with cynicism. If anyone in power cared about this "cynical negativity" they would explain how all of these changes will make us better off than we were in December and recoup the costs of Brexit in clear terms. I don't see that public cynicism makes any difference to the UK's prospects, I can't see any exporters turning down trade with new markets on the bais that @randomperson4857239 on Twitter thinks that it's a fudge to paper over the cracks. Brexit is already being judged by its effect on international trade and this will continue.
 

noah_jo

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Yes because economic union and free trade are completely separate concepts.

Okay here's the question, what part of the EU isn't about facilitating free trade?
To quote the self professed aims of the EU:


"All countries that are part of the European Union work together
to make sure that:

  • there is peace in Europe
  • people have good lives
  • things are fair for all people and nobody is left out
  • the languages and cultures of all people
    are respected
  • there is a strong European economy
    and countries use the same coin
    to do business together.

The countries of the European Union
share some important values.
For example, they work to make sure that all people are equal
and their rights are respected."


It's important to note that I'm not saying any of the above are neccesairily bad things, what I am saying is that it is not with the PRIMRARY aim of enabling free trade. In fact, on the EU's "About Us" page, it does not mention trade even once.

The EU does, undeniably, facilitate free trade within it's members, but the criticism of it is that that comes at the cost of sovreignty.

Arguing this isnt going to get anywhere - what I am trying to get across is why something like the CPTPP has (mostly) been lauded by Brexiteers and those (like me) who backed remain in 2016 but have never been overly in love with the EU.
Given the bare faced lies that have now been exposed as such time and time again, I don't understand why you think that it's unreasonable for new, wild claims to be treated with cynicism. If anyone in power cared about this "cynical negativity" they would explain how all of these changes will make us better off than we were in December and recoup the costs of Brexit in clear terms. I don't see that public cynicism makes any difference to the UK's prospects, I can't see any exporters turning down trade with new markets on the bais that @randomperson4857239 on Twitter thinks that it's a fudge to paper over the cracks. Brexit is already being judged by its effect on international trade and this will continue.
Wild claims like what? The wild claim that "global britain" tagline that suggests the government doesn't want to be the inward looking bogeyman that Remain painted them to be? Or that the Uk wants to join the CPTPP? What wild claim is there to be sceptical about?

I would actually be very interested to see if there was a link between public negativity and economic growth, but that's not the point I was making. What I am saying is that it is odd and deeply frustraiting to witness the self professed "outward looking / globalist / pro-free trade" Remain FBPE crew to now be ******** on efforts to become outward looking and cultivate international free trade. It just comes across as pretty insincere imo, more focused on being correct about the doom and gloom of brexit, rather than actually trying to make a success of our economy moving forward - surely something everyone should be able to get on board with?
 

ncurd

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All trade deals come at the cost of 'sovereignty' simply because you have to give up some level of resolving disputes from a purely internal affair. The question is how much sovereignty your willing to give up.

Now here's why I'm asking the question you ever read a companies mission statement? I be you no where does it state 'to make loads of money for investors' but that's the real reason the the company exists. But they'll come up with some crap 'globalising the worlds data to bring everyone closer together'. Its no different with the EU, the EU simply exists to facilitate the easy transaction of money so people can accumulate more of it for all its trappings it a purely capitalist body which is why some on more extreme edges of left hate it. Its why Corbyn was always opposed to it.

This is why I ask the question rather than listing aims and what not what does the EU actually do that isn't about facilitating free trade because every decision it makes is about trying to manage that which why the four freedoms are all about free trade (even if it doesn't mention it)
  • Free movement of goods.
  • Free movement of capital.
  • Freedom to establish and provide services.
  • Free movement of persons.
 

Gavin

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A meeting of the EU-UK body overseeing the NI Brexit deal aimed at resolving issues with the Irish Sea border was "hugely disappointing", First Minister Arlene Foster has said.

But Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill said the meeting had been "constructive and pragmatic".

ryan reynolds facepalm GIF
 

Reiser99

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ryan reynolds facepalm GIF

"We signed a deal...we don't like the deal." Hmm...that sounds familiar. Wasn't Brexit supposed to be done as we had signed the deal? Honestly it's take just over a month for Britain to try and start changing the terms again (it probably started on the 1st Jan). 2023 is just taking the ****. "You know the grace period we agreed to, can we just extend it 700% as we've realised it's a right **** up for us."

Honestly if I was the rest of the world I've put a lot of legal conditions and safeguards into any trade deal with Britain.
 

Gavin

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DUP leader Arlene Foster, along with deputy leader Nigel Dodds and East Belfast MP Gavin Robinson, have met a representative group for loyalist paramilitaries over the Northern Ireland Protocol.

A party spokesman said they discussed opposition to the protocol within the community with the Loyalist Communities Council.

The Loyalist Communities Council represents groups including the UVF, UDA and Red Hand Commando.

Like this seriously is a bit mental, though the increase in posters and banners claiming 'Irish Sea Border workers are all targets' probably warrants a discussion.

Is any of this situation being discussed much in the rest of the UK?
 
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Groundhog

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Like this seriously is a bit mental, though the increase in posters and banners claiming 'Irish Sea Border workers are all targets' probably warrants a discussion.

Is any of this situation being discussed much in the rest of the UK?
Think we both know what the answer to your last question is. It will be all feigned ignorance from occasional Torie pal Arlene and her subhuman mates then when some port worker ends up dead.
 

ncurd

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