• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

A Political Thread pt. 2

Akker Van Der Tigs

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
18,586
Reaction score
3,786
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Leicester

People have been saying why not peaceful protests since what the 1950's?
How often has peaceful protests ended up changing things?
 

Akker Van Der Tigs

Hall of Fame
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
18,586
Reaction score
3,786
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

Leicester

More like a realist.

I would love if change could happen on it's own though.
(Disclaimer I'm very much against riots and think they do massive amount of harm to the communities that struggle the most)
 

Which Tyler

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Messages
5,809
Reaction score
2,341
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

People have been saying why not peaceful protests since what the 1950's?
How often has peaceful protests ended up changing things?
Once.
And even then it probably only sped up what was happening through political means (and the fact that violent protest was a gnat's fart away)
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
4,066
Reaction score
1,497
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

Race issues in general, yes obviously, everywhere has issues with race. A systemically racist police force, no.

But that's not the point I was making here - when it happened Minneapolis started getting set on fire again because the assumption was immediately made that this was a race thing because there was a black guy involved.

Basically he was pulled over for a break light but also *apparently* had a warrant out on him for jumping bail on an armed robbery charge (there is a warrant floating around twitter but it may well not be real). Regardless, it's not really relevant.

What the police have said happened, and the video seems to back up is that he tried to run off after getting pulled over and the woman who the body cam is on intended to tazer him but shot him instead because, stupidity I guess. Essentially she just thought she was holding a tazer but most certainly wasn't. Stupidity at its worst.

100% a manslaughter charge and deservedly so - most definitely does not warrant BLM riots and calls for less funding as has once again happened tho. They need better training across the board, not less of it.
You clearly don't know what structural/systemic racism is. It's not where a whole organisation is blatantly racist, but when there are clear biases in the way different groups are treated. The fact that black people are more likely to be stopped in the first place. The fact that when dealing with a black person the police are more like to use force/weapons. The fact more black people end up being shot/killed/hurt through violence. That black people are more likely to arrested and convicted (watch the film 13th on Netflix to see why prison population is high). It doesn't have to be overt, blatant racism to still be racism.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
You clearly don't know what structural/systemic racism is. It's not where a whole organisation is blatantly racist, but when there are clear biases in the way different groups are treated. The fact that black people are more likely to be stopped in the first place. The fact that when dealing with a black person the police are more like to use force/weapons. The fact more black people end up being shot/killed/hurt through violence. That black people are more likely to arrested and convicted (watch the film 13th on Netflix to see why prison population is high). It doesn't have to be overt, blatant racism to still be racism.

I watched that. Was aware of a lot of the stuff (especially around the disgusting motives behind a lot of drug policy in the Stares) but was eye opening as well.

The whole prison system over there is ******.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

The structural element wouldn’t be concerned about whether the woman cop was racist or not. It doesn’t mean they assume the cop thought I’m going to kill this guy because he’s black. The structural element would focus on why he was pulled over in the first place and whether black people, particularly black men, are disproportionately pulled over for no reason. In this case maybe the “random traffic stop” wasn’t so random. I guess that would be the thing that would be frustrating for a lot of African Americans. I’d also say that perhaps, and I’d need to see evidence on this, that because there’s such an ingrained fear of black men in America, that these incidents tend to be handled very differently by police when it’s a white suspect compared to a black one.

Considering it’s history I’d say it would be very hard for America’s instititions not to be racist. It was founded on it. Same goes for us in the UK though to a lesser degree in my opinion.
I don't really think incompetence is much of an excuse in one isolated incident. It's still police killing black people, an oppressed minority won't and shouldn't see it any other way until this is no longer an issue. It also raises the question of whether she'd have thoughtlessly reached for her gun had it been a white man.

Rioting as a form of protest is on its last legs, the message has been sent and something more structured, preferably more peaceful and on a grander scale is required soon but every incident like this needs a reaction in the States in my opinion.
So a couple issues here with this incident specifically, then I'll go onto the wider police issue afterwards.

@Welsh Exile - It wasn't a random traffic stop - it was a stop for a busted break light - which, if they ran the plates, would have come up as being linked to someone with an arrest warrant out for him, with a link to having a gun and using it threateningly. The stop itself was entirely justified, and using a tazer on a suspect trying to get back into a car (where one should assume they have a weapon, because America) and running away.
@The Alpha Bro - surely this is the prime case where incompetence is a very valid reason, because it is an isolated incident? If we are talking statistically, the number of unarmed, cooperating black people fatally shot by police is minimal (9 unarmed black people in comparison to 19 unarmed white people in 2019). If any person with a warrant out for a violent crime and who, it would not be unreasonable to assume had a gun, jumped into their car and tried to run away, then the use of a tazer should be expected. Unfortunately the police officer was clearly not competent enough to do that properly.

So the wider police issue then - my general opinion is that the issues that you see in regards to prison population, arrest numbers and crime rates etc are not an issue in regards to the police force being systemically racist, but that is rather the manifestation of decades of poor social policy in those vulnerable communities that has led to a high crime rate. For example, black men between14-24 commit homicide at 37 times the rate of the rest of the population (obama admin report from 2011). In 2018, 13% of the population commited 53% of the murders and 60% of the robberies. The percieved issues in the police are the result of a deeper issue. Blaming it on the police is papering over the cracks and a classic case of rhetoric over meaningful action.

Obviosuly, the african-american community in the US has a much much higher crime rate than any other demographic (I'll get on to why I think that is in a mo). If you take that as the starting point, it is entirely reasonable that, purely by virtue of a numbers game, there would be a higher AA prison populus, they would get pulled over more, and police would be more likely to be more careful and suspicious of them - it's a numbers game rather than a racial one. It obviously isn't something that we should just accpet, but again, it is the manifestation of a deeper issue - if you want to mitigate it, changing police practices broadly isn't going to help combat crime - but changing social policy may. Just as a personal aspect to this, I'm mixed race and have a very clearly Arabic surname as well as being in my 20s. It is a rarity for me not to run into some sort of hiccup at airports, whether that be more questioning than people I am flying with or, almost every time, going through more scrupoulous searches. However, I understand that it's not because the staff are racist and hate me or my ethnicity - it is purely a numbers game and that is absolutely understandable. To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect.

How then does one balance the numbers? Adress issues like poverty, education etc - but acknowledge that one of the biggest the impactors on crime rate is single motherhood, which it is thus unsurprising, is far more prevelant among African Americans. Encourage two parent household families, and you will almost certainly see a reduction in the crime rate - and then you will see that trickle through to the police numbers. The prison system in the US is ****** regardless of race and they are all too keen to lock up violent offenders at the first oppertunity.

You clearly don't know what structural/systemic racism is. It's not where a whole organisation is blatantly racist, but when there are clear biases in the way different groups are treated. The fact that black people are more likely to be stopped in the first place. The fact that when dealing with a black person the police are more like to use force/weapons. The fact more black people end up being shot/killed/hurt through violence. That black people are more likely to arrested and convicted (watch the film 13th on Netflix to see why prison population is high). It doesn't have to be overt, blatant racism to still be racism.

@Reiser99 - I fully understand what systemic/structural racism is. We can have this debate whilst also being civil and without condescension. What we disagree on what is racism and what is use of statistics and probability. Typically, systemic racism neccessitates that actual practices are designed to negativly impact a particular racial group - the reality is that this, broadly, isn't the case in regards to policing. Law enforcement will always reflect crime statistics, and with that, other socio-economic issues - be that poverty, lack of social responsibility or single motherhood etc. It's not racist in itself, but reflective of wider societal issues that reflect decades of **** policy making, that again, largely isn't racist (any more), more just a case of rhetoric over substance and awful long term planning yet again.


Overall, what I'm getting at is that the police and crime statistics are simply the window through which deeper socio-economic issues with poverty in the US manifest themselves. If you want to change that, looking at the police is, once again, a case of rhetoric over action. It is an easy thing to point at, cut funding and demonsise all whilst patting yourself on the back for being an "ally", but in reality it has achieved little to nothing, often causing more harm than good. If the legislators and activists want to do something to combat the disproportionate black crime rate and thus prison populus, they need to adress the grassroots issues such as single motherhood, which they won't do because it's more effort and doesn't look as good.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
So a couple issues here with this incident specifically, then I'll go onto the wider police issue afterwards.

@Welsh Exile - It wasn't a random traffic stop - it was a stop for a busted break light - which, if they ran the plates, would have come up as being linked to someone with an arrest warrant out for him, with a link to having a gun and using it threateningly. The stop itself was entirely justified, and using a tazer on a suspect trying to get back into a car (where one should assume they have a weapon, because America) and running away.
@The Alpha Bro - surely this is the prime case where incompetence is a very valid reason, because it is an isolated incident? If we are talking statistically, the number of unarmed, cooperating black people fatally shot by police is minimal (9 unarmed black people in comparison to 19 unarmed white people in 2019). If any person with a warrant out for a violent crime and who, it would not be unreasonable to assume had a gun, jumped into their car and tried to run away, then the use of a tazer should be expected. Unfortunately the police officer was clearly not competent enough to do that properly.

So the wider police issue then - my general opinion is that the issues that you see in regards to prison population, arrest numbers and crime rates etc are not an issue in regards to the police force being systemically racist, but that is rather the manifestation of decades of poor social policy in those vulnerable communities that has led to a high crime rate. For example, black men between14-24 commit homicide at 37 times the rate of the rest of the population (obama admin report from 2011). In 2018, 13% of the population commited 53% of the murders and 60% of the robberies. The percieved issues in the police are the result of a deeper issue. Blaming it on the police is papering over the cracks and a classic case of rhetoric over meaningful action.

Obviosuly, the african-american community in the US has a much much higher crime rate than any other demographic (I'll get on to why I think that is in a mo). If you take that as the starting point, it is entirely reasonable that, purely by virtue of a numbers game, there would be a higher AA prison populus, they would get pulled over more, and police would be more likely to be more careful and suspicious of them - it's a numbers game rather than a racial one. It obviously isn't something that we should just accpet, but again, it is the manifestation of a deeper issue - if you want to mitigate it, changing police practices broadly isn't going to help combat crime - but changing social policy may. Just as a personal aspect to this, I'm mixed race and have a very clearly Arabic surname as well as being in my 20s. It is a rarity for me not to run into some sort of hiccup at airports, whether that be more questioning than people I am flying with or, almost every time, going through more scrupoulous searches. However, I understand that it's not because the staff are racist and hate me or my ethnicity - it is purely a numbers game and that is absolutely understandable. To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect.

How then does one balance the numbers? Adress issues like poverty, education etc - but acknowledge that one of the biggest the impactors on crime rate is single motherhood, which it is thus unsurprising, is far more prevelant among African Americans. Encourage two parent household families, and you will almost certainly see a reduction in the crime rate - and then you will see that trickle through to the police numbers. The prison system in the US is ****** regardless of race and they are all too keen to lock up violent offenders at the first oppertunity.



@Reiser99 - I fully understand what systemic/structural racism is. We can have this debate whilst also being civil and without condescension. What we disagree on what is racism and what is use of statistics and probability. Typically, systemic racism neccessitates that actual practices are designed to negativly impact a particular racial group - the reality is that this, broadly, isn't the case in regards to policing. Law enforcement will always reflect crime statistics, and with that, other socio-economic issues - be that poverty, lack of social responsibility or single motherhood etc. It's not racist in itself, but reflective of wider societal issues that reflect decades of **** policy making, that again, largely isn't racist (any more), more just a case of rhetoric over substance and awful long term planning yet again.


Overall, what I'm getting at is that the police and crime statistics are simply the window through which deeper socio-economic issues with poverty in the US manifest themselves. If you want to change that, looking at the police is, once again, a case of rhetoric over action. It is an easy thing to point at, cut funding and demonsise all whilst patting yourself on the back for being an "ally", but in reality it has achieved little to nothing, often causing more harm than good. If the legislators and activists want to do something to combat the disproportionate black crime rate and thus prison populus, they need to adress the grassroots issues such as single motherhood, which they won't do because it's more effort and doesn't look as good.

Tbh, I think a lot of African Americans are very sceptical about any kind of information that comes directly from the police as they have shown time and time again that they lie and falsify reports to their own ends. In this case maybe he did have a broken brake light, maybe he didn’t. I reckon the chances of them letting a white person go with a broken light is higher than that of a black person

I don’t think even you most hardcore BLM activist would discredit class as an important factor it clearly is but that doesn’t mean to say race isn’t either.

The ultimate question is why do black people find themselves more likely to be in poverty compared to white people. Why are people with black sounding surnames less likely to get a call back for an interview. Why are black people disproportionately locked yo compared to other working class white peoples for same crime? I think you’d have more of a case if you were talking UK but American history, and it’s institutions, are literally founded on racism and slavery and it’s so recent that of course it’s important.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

Tbh, I think a lot of African Americans are very sceptical about any kind of information that comes directly from the police as they have shown time and time again that they lie and falsify reports to their own ends. In this case maybe he did have a broken brake light,
Maybe he didn’t. I reckon the chances of them letting a white person go with a broken light is higher than that of a black person

I don’t think even you most hardcore BLM activist would discredit class a important factor it clearly is but that doesn’t mean to say race isn’t either.

The ultimate question is why do black people find themselves more likely to be in poverty compared to white people. Why are people with black sounding surnames less likely to get a call back for an interview. Why are black people disproportionately locked yo compared to other working class white peoples for same crime? I think you’d have more of a case if you were talking UK but American history, and it’s institutions, are literally founded on racism and slavery and it’s so recent that of course it’s important.
He still had a warrant out for his arrest regardless, I don't think you can make an argument for his pulling over being unjustified based on the info we currently have available.

See this is the thing with BLM and their manifesto - something like the end of the nuclear family is statistically going to make the crime rate higher and thus the amount of black people who have negative interactions with police higher as well - it suggests that they don't actually give a **** about the experiences of the people they pretend to root for and are more focused on buying mansions for themselves. As happened this week.

I absolutely acknowledge that over the past century, plenty of policies have led to the racial demographics that we have in regards to poverty today - which is why I said in my first post that there are issues with race in the US, but that I dont think the police force is systemically racist.

Absolutely I think all of those issues you mentioned need looking at and it needs to be worked out how to actually adress them properly - it's undeniably an issue (the call back for white applicants is 10% whilst for black applicants it's about 6.66%) whilst prison sentences are about 10% longer on average for the same crime I believe. The US justice system needs serious reform across the board, and there are obviously still lots of racist HR people kicking about, but that is different from saying the police are systemically racist.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
He still had a warrant out for his arrest regardless, I don't think you can make an argument for his pulling over being unjustified based on the info we currently have available.

See this is the thing with BLM and their manifesto - something like the end of the nuclear family is statistically going to make the crime rate higher and thus the amount of black people who have negative interactions with police higher as well - it suggests that they don't actually give a **** about the experiences of the people they pretend to root for and are more focused on buying mansions for themselves. As happened this week.

I absolutely acknowledge that over the past century, plenty of policies have led to the racial demographics that we have in regards to poverty today - which is why I said in my first post that there are issues with race in the US, but that I dont think the police force is systemically racist.

Absolutely I think all of those issues you mentioned need looking at and it needs to be worked out how to actually adress them properly - it's undeniably an issue (the call back for white applicants is 10% whilst for black applicants it's about 6.66%) whilst prison sentences are about 10% longer on average for the same crime I believe. The US justice system needs serious reform across the board, and there are obviously still lots of racist HR people kicking about, but that is different from saying the police are systemically racist.

If you accept all that then you accept that theres institutional racism. That’s what it is.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
Why are black families more likely to be single parent families? Another good question that is probably linked to other institutional issues as well as class issues.
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
2,120
Reaction score
654
Country Flag

UK

Club or Nation

Harlequins

If you accept all that then you accept that theres institutional racism. That’s what it is.
I disagree -

Firstly, my point was purely on the police being systemically racist, not the entire country.

Secondly, I think we disagree on the definition itself - imo, in regards to actually producing helpful policy, it is deeply damaging to conflate systemic racism in the sense of systems designed intentional to subjugate or discriminate against a particular race people with those systems which produce inequal outcome. They are both issues, but need to be combatted differently. Again, it may be easier and look nicer to just lump them all in together, but they're very different problems and require very different solutions.
Why are black families more likely to be single parent families? Another good question that is probably linked to other institutional issues as well as class issues.
This is actually a really interesting one - it seems to have essentially skyrocketed from the 70s onwards, with various opinions as to why.

There is an argument that broadly, it is a result of the welfare system essentially removing the financial neccesity to be married, and that this has a disproportionate impact on impoverished communities, which would have especially impacted black communities at the time.

Another argument is that because of low black male employment, this led to less suitible candidates for marraige and thus more out of wedlock births.

Both of those factors combined wouldn't have enough of an impact to explain what we've seen today tho.

More likely, it is linked to Roe v Wade, the end of shotgun marraiges and general access to contraception in impoverished communities (though rates of black u16s who had a sexual expeirience were way higher than that of white u16s regardless). As it became more socially acceptable to have a child out of wedlock essentially due to a revolution in terms of sexual acceptance, single motherhood skyrocketed with it.

All in all, a few different issues, with no one policy you can really pinpoint.






Overall, I doubt we are that far off in our understanding of what the issues are and where, but where we vary is our definition of what systemic racism is / should be characterised as and thus our approach to fixing the problems.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
I disagree -

Firstly, my point was purely on the police being systemically racist, not the entire country.

Secondly, I think we disagree on the definition itself - imo, in regards to actually producing helpful policy, it is deeply damaging to conflate systemic racism in the sense of systems designed intentional to subjugate or discriminate against a particular race people with those systems which produce inequal outcome. They are both issues, but need to be combatted differently. Again, it may be easier and look nicer to just lump them all in together, but they're very different problems and require very different solutions.

This is actually a really interesting one - it seems to have essentially skyrocketed from the 70s onwards, with various opinions as to why.

There is an argument that broadly, it is a result of the welfare system essentially removing the financial neccesity to be married, and that this has a disproportionate impact on impoverished communities, which would have especially impacted black communities at the time.

Another argument is that because of low black male employment, this led to less suitible candidates for marraige and thus more out of wedlock births.

Both of those factors combined wouldn't have enough of an impact to explain what we've seen today tho.

More likely, it is linked to Roe v Wade, the end of shotgun marraiges and general access to contraception in impoverished communities (though rates of black u16s who had a sexual expeirience were way higher than that of white u16s regardless). As it became more socially acceptable to have a child out of wedlock essentially due to a revolution in terms of sexual acceptance, single motherhood skyrocketed with it.

All in all, a few different issues, with no one policy you can really pinpoint.






Overall, I doubt we are that far off in our understanding of what the issues are and where, but where we vary is our definition of what systemic racism is / should be characterised as and thus our approach to fixing the problems.

Yeah I disagree but appreciate your responses. I think you’re right in that we’re defining it differently. You’re saying institutional racism are intentionally designed systems and I agree with you, it was intentional for things like US drug policy. That was an intentional policy to discriminate and criminalise black people (and communists). It was intentional, after the civil war when the South had to free the slaves, to arrest freed slaves for petty things such as loitering so they could clean up the mess the civil war left. To produce a whole criminal class was intentional. This much is all true. Today, however, things are a lot more covert and while not all the outcomes are as intentional as they were 100/200 years ago they are built on the same foundation, the same racist structures. This is the first definition I found when googled and I’d say it fits almost perfectly with what you say we shouldn’t conflate it with.

Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded through laws within society or an organization. It can lead to such issues as discrimination in criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power, and education, among other issues.
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
4,066
Reaction score
1,497
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

@noah_jo I will agree that socio-economic issues are also a major factor and many issues can be linked to poverty and lack of opportunity. Certainly America and Britain as well as other countries need to approach systemic racism as a national issue that pervades almost every aspect of society, rather than individual organisations. I'm currently reading 'Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge and it really is helping me understand what systemic racism looks like. One of the main points is that being born white still gives you a huge advantage over people who are not born white. The media narrative in films, books etc...still predominantly shows white people (often white Americans) as an example of what normal is. White culture and ideals are still mainly considered the norm in how people should act and behave. Having a white sounding name gives you more opportunities when applying for jobs. Anyway I have some issues with your responses.

@Welsh Exile - The stop itself was entirely justified, and using a tazer on a suspect trying to get back into a car (where one should assume they have a weapon, because America) and running away.
There is still structural/systemic racism here. Yes America has an issue with guns, but police are more likely to draw a taser/weapon on black people compared with white people. Already the officers will unconsciously be on the defensive not because of the situation, but because of the colour of his skin. This makes chances of shooting more likely for black people, which is a product of systemic racism. How this view of black suspects has been allowed to develop is related to other wider issues such as socio-economic problems, but the fact that police will approach a situation differently because of the colour of someone's skin is racist. This is also linked to the abysmal amount of training police receive in America.

@The Alpha Bro - surely this is the prime case where incompetence is a very valid reason, because it is an isolated incident? If we are talking statistically, the number of unarmed, cooperating black people fatally shot by police is minimal (9 unarmed black people in comparison to 19 unarmed white people in 2019). If any person with a warrant out for a violent crime and who, it would not be unreasonable to assume had a gun, jumped into their car and tried to run away, then the use of a tazer should be expected. Unfortunately the police officer was clearly not competent enough to do that properly.
You use of stats here is flawed. Yes less black people were shot, but black people make up only 13% of the national population compared with 76% who are white (US Census data 2019). I'm not sure how many fatal shootings there were overall from the data you are using, but 9 people compared with 19 is likely to be far higher proportionally when you account for the total population numbers. Further just quickly researching, studies show that unarmed black people are 3 times more likely to be fatally shot than white people. https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroo...in-us-more-than-3-times-as-high-as-in-whites/

Now as for competence well it's already widely acknowledged that American police officers are not as well trained as officers in other countries. However, first of all the tasers in question is designed to be different from a gun to avoid these mistakes (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56729673 check the bbc reality check). Second she had been an officer for 26 years and had also served on the negotiation team. I'm not saying definitely isn't a genuine mistake. However, systemic racism means that those officers were more likely to approach the situation assuming it could turn violent and so were more likely to draw weapons at any slight hint of danger. On top Daunte Wright would have been more scared for his life as he will know first hand what can happen to black suspects in this case. I'm not saying he hadn't committed a crime or the warrant wasn't justified, but the whole situation would have been more volatile because of how the police perceived the suspect and how the suspect perceived the police which is a direct result of systemic racism in America and the police.
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
4,066
Reaction score
1,497
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

So the wider police issue then - my general opinion is that the issues that you see in regards to prison population, arrest numbers and crime rates etc are not an issue in regards to the police force being systemically racist, but that is rather the manifestation of decades of poor social policy in those vulnerable communities that has led to a high crime rate. For example, black men between14-24 commit homicide at 37 times the rate of the rest of the population (obama admin report from 2011). In 2018, 13% of the population commited 53% of the murders and 60% of the robberies. The percieved issues in the police are the result of a deeper issue. Blaming it on the police is papering over the cracks and a classic case of rhetoric over meaningful action.

Obviosuly, the african-american community in the US has a much much higher crime rate than any other demographic (I'll get on to why I think that is in a mo). If you take that as the starting point, it is entirely reasonable that, purely by virtue of a numbers game, there would be a higher AA prison populus, they would get pulled over more, and police would be more likely to be more careful and suspicious of them - it's a numbers game rather than a racial one. It obviously isn't something that we should just accpet, but again, it is the manifestation of a deeper issue - if you want to mitigate it, changing police practices broadly isn't going to help combat crime - but changing social policy may. Just as a personal aspect to this, I'm mixed race and have a very clearly Arabic surname as well as being in my 20s. It is a rarity for me not to run into some sort of hiccup at airports, whether that be more questioning than people I am flying with or, almost every time, going through more scrupoulous searches. However, I understand that it's not because the staff are racist and hate me or my ethnicity - it is purely a numbers game and that is absolutely understandable. To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect.

How then does one balance the numbers? Adress issues like poverty, education etc - but acknowledge that one of the biggest the impactors on crime rate is single motherhood, which it is thus unsurprising, is far more prevelant among African Americans. Encourage two parent household families, and you will almost certainly see a reduction in the crime rate - and then you will see that trickle through to the police numbers. The prison system in the US is ****** regardless of race and they are all too keen to lock up violent offenders at the first oppertunity.
I agree with a lot of this that many of the issues relate to socio-economic problems. However it still doesn't change the fact that in America and this country black people and in general anyone who is non-white are more likely to be stopped. The issue I have is mainly with this sentence here. " To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect."

Reading the article you linked I have have some issues with their assumptions. First they say "As the proportion of Black or Hispanic officers in a FOIS increases, a person shot is more likely to be Black or Hispanic than White, a disparity explained by county demographics". That actually does support systemic racism because it is the racism that reflects how black people are treated compared with white people and it has been shown that black officers will have the same prejudices as their white colleagues because the racism linked to the institution and system, not individual per say. Second "race-specific county-level violent crime strongly predicts the race of the civilian shot", this again supports systemic racism because while yes black people proportionally may end up committing more crimes many of the reasons for this are linked to systemic racism and re-offending rates. When black people as a whole have lower employment figures, what are the chances of black offenders getting jobs after leaving prison (this is ignoring how the prison/justice system is setup to actually get as many people in prison as possible, which also disproportionately affects black people, again watch 13th on Netflix). Third they can't find any clear links because the data is uncertain. The data is uncertain, so we're going to assume it supports our argument. This is flawed because while it may not show systemic racism clearly, it also doesn't disprove it either and should be used to support a conclusion. Simply I see flaws in their logic and assumptions just from their summary. Finally doing a quick google shows that they retracted the article in 2020 with this being their statement: (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/30/18130)
The authors wish to note the following: “Our article estimated the role of officer characteristics in predicting the race of civilians fatally shot by police. A critique pointed out we had erroneously made statements about racial differences in the probability of being shot (1), and we issued a correction to rectify the statement (2).
Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research.
While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot.
Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article.”

@Reiser99 - I fully understand what systemic/structural racism is. We can have this debate whilst also being civil and without condescension. What we disagree on what is racism and what is use of statistics and probability. Typically, systemic racism neccessitates that actual practices are designed to negativly impact a particular racial group - the reality is that this, broadly, isn't the case in regards to policing. Law enforcement will always reflect crime statistics, and with that, other socio-economic issues - be that poverty, lack of social responsibility or single motherhood etc. It's not racist in itself, but reflective of wider societal issues that reflect decades of **** policy making, that again, largely isn't racist (any more), more just a case of rhetoric over substance and awful long term planning yet again.
This here is my biggest issue. You equate systemic racism with overt practices that are specifically designed to negatively impact a particular racial group. This is where you are wrong. Systemic racism is to do with the fact that being born black (and in most cases non-white, though to different degrees) means that you are treated differently by society and the institutions that make up society. Just being born black means that you will face challenges that most white people won't. In terms of policing as this is our current focus, being black means that you are almost certain to be stopped by the police at some point in your life or have contact with the police in some way. It means that when stopped by the police they already assume you are a criminal because the statistics reflect that, so you must fall into that category. It means that when deal with suspects you are more likely to be shot or have violence used against you when being detained/arrested or even questioned. It means when police raid a house they are actively looking for any threat which makes them more likely to shoot first. Also of this disproportionally affects black people. It's not necessarily intentional, but it is systemic racism and it is in the police force, both in America and in the UK.

I said at the start that I am reading 'Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge and I would recommend it as it explains far better what systemic racism is and what it looks like.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
I agree with a lot of this that many of the issues relate to socio-economic problems. However it still doesn't change the fact that in America and this country black people and in general anyone who is non-white are more likely to be stopped. The issue I have is mainly with this sentence here. " To that end - it is worth noting that when they police do encounter a suspect, white police officers show no difference in regards to the use of force whatever the race of the suspect."

Reading the article you linked I have have some issues with their assumptions. First they say "As the proportion of Black or Hispanic officers in a FOIS increases, a person shot is more likely to be Black or Hispanic than White, a disparity explained by county demographics". That actually does support systemic racism because it is the racism that reflects how black people are treated compared with white people and it has been shown that black officers will have the same prejudices as their white colleagues because the racism linked to the institution and system, not individual per say. Second "race-specific county-level violent crime strongly predicts the race of the civilian shot", this again supports systemic racism because while yes black people proportionally may end up committing more crimes many of the reasons for this are linked to systemic racism and re-offending rates. When black people as a whole have lower employment figures, what are the chances of black offenders getting jobs after leaving prison (this is ignoring how the prison/justice system is setup to actually get as many people in prison as possible, which also disproportionately affects black people, again watch 13th on Netflix). Third they can't find any clear links because the data is uncertain. The data is uncertain, so we're going to assume it supports our argument. This is flawed because while it may not show systemic racism clearly, it also doesn't disprove it either and should be used to support a conclusion. Simply I see flaws in their logic and assumptions just from their summary. Finally doing a quick google shows that they retracted the article in 2020 with this being their statement: (https://www.pnas.org/content/117/30/18130)
The authors wish to note the following: “Our article estimated the role of officer characteristics in predicting the race of civilians fatally shot by police. A critique pointed out we had erroneously made statements about racial differences in the probability of being shot (1), and we issued a correction to rectify the statement (2).
Despite this correction, our work has continued to be cited as providing support for the idea that there are no racial biases in fatal shootings, or policing in general. To be clear, our work does not speak to these issues and should not be used to support such statements. We take full responsibility for not being careful enough with the inferences made in our original report, as this directly led to the misunderstanding of our research.
While our data and statistical approach were appropriate for investigating whether officer characteristics are related to the race of civilians fatally shot by police, they are inadequate to address racial disparities in the probability of being shot.
Given these issues and the continued use of our work in the public debate on this topic, we have decided to retract the article.”


This here is my biggest issue. You equate systemic racism with overt practices that are specifically designed to negatively impact a particular racial group. This is where you are wrong. Systemic racism is to do with the fact that being born black (and in most cases non-white, though to different degrees) means that you are treated differently by society and the institutions that make up society. Just being born black means that you will face challenges that most white people won't. In terms of policing as this is our current focus, being black means that you are almost certain to be stopped by the police at some point in your life or have contact with the police in some way. It means that when stopped by the police they already assume you are a criminal because the statistics reflect that, so you must fall into that category. It means that when deal with suspects you are more likely to be shot or have violence used against you when being detained/arrested or even questioned. It means when police raid a house they are actively looking for any threat which makes them more likely to shoot first. Also of this disproportionally affects black people. It's not necessarily intentional, but it is systemic racism and it is in the police force, both in America and in the UK.

I said at the start that I am reading 'Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race' by Reni Eddo-Lodge and I would recommend it as it explains far better what systemic racism is and what it looks like.
Excellent couple of posts there mate. Better articulated than I could ever do. Not that that is very hard.

That 13th doc is great and I’ve seen an interview with that woman who wrote the book you’re reading. Very interesting. Would be interested in hearing your thoughts/summary once you’ve read it.

Going back to the 13th, one thing that I found interesting (well kind of sickening actually) was, and forgive me I can’t remember the names, but it was a presidential race between some democrat and I believe Bush senior. Anyway, the dem candidate was smashing it in the polls and Bush looked done for. However, not long before the pools were open there was a case of a black man raping, and I believe killing, a white woman. For the next 2 weeks Bush and co just drilled this home all over the country coz it tapped into that fear of the black man that Americans have. By the end Bush won quite comfortably I believe and that was that.
 

Reiser99

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
4,066
Reaction score
1,497
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Leicester

Excellent couple of posts there mate. Better articulated than I could ever do. Not that that is very hard.

That 13th doc is great and I’ve seen an interview with that woman who wrote the book you’re reading. Very interesting. Would be interested in hearing your thoughts/summary once you’ve read it.

Going back to the 13th, one thing that I found interesting (well kind of sickening actually) was, and forgive me I can’t remember the names, but it was a presidential race between some democrat and I believe Bush senior. Anyway, the dem candidate was smashing it in the polls and Bush looked done for. However, not long before the pools were open there was a case of a black man raping, and I believe killing, a white woman. For the next 2 weeks Bush and co just drilled this home all over the country coz it tapped into that fear of the black man that Americans have. By the end Bush won quite comfortably I believe and that was that.
Yeah I can definitely give some thoughts/summary on it. Already just reading the start shows how little I know of recent British history dealing with issues of race and I thought I knew more than most white people would in the UK. For example In World War 1 the British Government promised Indians that if they fought in the war India would be given it's freedom from colonial rule and then they completely reneged on the promise. Lynch mobs in Liverpool in the 1919 that murdered innocent black men. A private members bill advocating forced sterilisation with it origins in a eugenics movement was actually voted on (and defeated) in 1931. The fact that it even made its way in to parliament is shocking. A number of race riots as a result of black people being murdered (we seem to think America has the monopoly on these.)

Only about a 1/4 of the way through, but I would already recommend it highly.
 

Welsh Exile

First XV
Joined
Jan 16, 2020
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
345
Yeah I can definitely give some thoughts/summary on it. Already just reading the start shows how little I know of recent British history dealing with issues of race and I thought I knew more than most white people would in the UK. For example In World War 1 the British Government promised Indians that if they fought in the war India would be given it's freedom from colonial rule and then they completely reneged on the promise. Lynch mobs in Liverpool in the 1919 that murdered innocent black men. A private members bill advocating forced sterilisation with it origins in a eugenics movement was actually voted on (and defeated) in 1931. The fact that it even made its way in to parliament is shocking. A number of race riots as a result of black people being murdered (we seem to think America has the monopoly on these.)

Only about a 1/4 of the way through, but I would already recommend it highly.

Yeah, I think I remember reading it’s stuff like that which has sadly, but totally understandably, led to a lot in the black community to distrust vaccinations of any kind.

I agree that these issues are global for sure. They may differ due to cultural or historical reasons or whatever but are the same in a lot ways.
 

Latest posts

Top