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A Political Thread pt. 2

So why do people keep voting for them then?
Also you know preparation time is pretty important for rugby right? (As is the ref)
You know what I mean its an excuse players often use.

Well on the face of the tories seem to be better at getting their message across than Labour. Like I said the electorate is the same for all parties, Tony Blair managed to hammer the tories 3 times against better tory leaders than the one we have now with an arguably less educated population so just trotting the oh they are just stupid line isn't helpful and a bit dishonest
 
Here's the thing has Starmer even been pushing the "identity politics/woke" line anymore? Corbynites seem to think he doesn't.

I mean for me voting the worst government cause their message seems better put, is like Turkey's voting for Christmas cause Santa clause is putting the message across well.
 
Have to be to think a party " riddled with middle class champagne socialists." is worse than a party riddled with legit champagne capitalists.
It is mad how Tory voters people think they have more in common with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg than people like Keir Starmer (<-- I'm not big Starmer fan, but he's far more of a regular human being than a lot of the Tory MPs who wouldn't spit on a commoner if they were on fire)


It does really boggle my mind that people continue to vote Tory, and their popularity is increasing
I get that in a (realistically) two party system a lot will vote for the status quo etc. but I don't understand how after....well, everything in the last decade they continue to be in power.
What are their selling points?
Are they really thriving just of superficial things like waving the flag and defending statues of Churchill from made up attacks?
 
Agreed mostly,

I think blaming populism is a fair cop thought because that is what Johnson is a populist the issue with it he says the populist things and then complete breaks those promises.

However the problem is how do you combat that populism and saying what you said "it uneducated voters", "its right wing press" yeah those are causes but that isn't going to get anyone to vote for you. You have to offer an 'alternative'. We've also seen that exposure to that, the rank hypocrisy of government does make minor dents in polling but it appears very short term (after last week it does appear a few days later it made about 4 points difference but yesterday it appears to have made none).

The problem is what are you selling and how do you sell it. Labour don't appear currently to be offering a plan (none of the other parties do I left the LD's for a reason). Now were (hopefully) exiting the pandemic I do hope Starmer and others can actually craft that message but until they do. "Not as evil as Tories" isn't going to cut the mustard.
If we want an end to this government then we need a Blair type character who is happy to do what he needs to get into power as that's the only way you can actually make a difference.

There needs to be a new centre left party IMO. Starmer just doesn't cut it when you compare him to the likes of Kinnock, Blair and even Brown. That said Johnson doesn't really stand up against Major or even Maggie
 
Here's the thing has Starmer even been pushing the "identity politics/woke" line anymore? Corbynites seem to think he doesn't.

I mean for me voting the worst government cause their message seems better put, is like Turkey's voting for Christmas cause Santa clause is putting the message across well.
Did I mention identity politics? No

Look fine keep banging on about thick people and Christmas turkeys etc but the problem isn't being solved
 
You know what I mean its an excuse players often use.

Well on the face of the tories seem to be better at getting their message across than Labour. Like I said the electorate is the same for all parties, Tony Blair managed to hammer the tories 3 times against better tory leaders than the one we have now with an arguably less educated population so just trotting the oh they are just stupid line isn't helpful and a bit dishonest
New Labour (although I was pretty young so don't remember it fully) was a pretty damn good marketing campaign it was "young, hip and cool" but also they managed convince people they weren't the Labour of the 70's either. And I'll be honest living under Blair in retrospect was pretty damn good, if he hadn't introduced tuition fees on me I may have actually voted for him.

Corbyn somehow managed to covnice younger people he was cool, but his hardcore supporters were completely toxic and did more damage than good. I can't think of one conversation with them where they came off well. It also did nothing for those who remember the 70's (I don't I'm too young) but all older folks I worked with he was a non flyer even though many were liberally minded and pro-EU (some weren't).

They have to appear competent yet not just "the laternative" it not an east feat.
 
It's not really my job to fix the problem, I'm calling it as I see it. I'm not a fan of Starmer but from the limited I've seen, he hasn't really gone hard against the it's the right's fault etc etc like previous gov did. I firmly believe that the left could mention nothing about the media and "uneducated" and would still lose.

I mean 5 years ago I argued your very point on this forum.
Since then with results here and elsewhere my opinion has changed.
 
You know what I mean its an excuse players often use.

Well on the face of the tories seem to be better at getting their message across than Labour. Like I said the electorate is the same for all parties, Tony Blair managed to hammer the tories 3 times against better tory leaders than the one we have now with an arguably less educated population so just trotting the oh they are just stupid line isn't helpful and a bit dishonest
Labour hadn't completely lost Scotland under Blair, though. That's a decent chunk of seats right there that Blair had as standard that Starmer (or any other Labour leader) are never getting back.

Labour and the left need to stop deluding themselves and realise under our undemocratic FPTP system,Tory gerrymandering as well as losing Scotland, they will never be winning an outright majority.
 
It's not as bad a result for Labour as suggested the Tory one with 52% of the result. Last time Brexit Party and Tory got 54.7% of the vote. If that vote hadn't been split we would not be talking about this and it would be part of Corbyns complete failure.

Turnout down by 15.2% left wing vote way more split. Previous MP resigning in disgrace. Strong independent candidate scooping up nearly 10% of the vote.


Not saying it isn't bad for Labour just it isn't the Earthshattering result people are going to make out it be.

Still a 16% swing from Labour to Conservatives would suggest it is pretty bad for Labour. I see Mandy is blaming Corbyn and Covid for the result.

Starmer staying very quiet on this.
 
New Labour (although I was pretty young so don't remember it fully) was a pretty damn good marketing campaign it was "young, hip and cool" but also they managed convince people they weren't the Labour of the 70's either. And I'll be honest living under Blair in retrospect was pretty damn good, if he hadn't introduced tuition fees on me I may have actually voted for him.

Corbyn somehow managed to covnice younger people he was cool, but his hardcore supporters were completely toxic and did more damage than good. I can't think of one conversation with them where they came off well. It also did nothing for those who remember the 70's (I don't I'm too young) but all older folks I worked with he was a non flyer even though many were liberally minded and pro-EU (some weren't).

They have to appear competent yet not just "the laternative" it not an east feat.
Well I do remember new Labour and even voted for it, it came after nearly a decade and half of very difficult but also quite fun times and in retrospect John Major was a pretty good PM by todays low standards but the country was desperate for a change and it got one and it wasn't that bad. Yes taxes went up but then so did public spending, borrowing wasn't anywhere near the last 10 years and we were a big player on the world stage.

Did New Labour do everything right? absolutely not the war in Iraq, Tuition fees and complete unlimited EU mass immigration which in the end caused a chain of reactions that ended in Brexit but overall society felt like it was moving forward as opposed to now it feels like we are slipping back into some Cold war type situation only without the relative stability the cold war gave.
 
It is mad how Tory voters people think they have more in common with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg than people like Keir Starmer (<-- I'm not big Starmer fan, but he's far more of a regular human being than a lot of the Tory MPs who wouldn't spit on a commoner if they were on fire)


It does really boggle my mind that people continue to vote Tory, and their popularity is increasing
I get that in a (realistically) two party system a lot will vote for the status quo etc. but I don't understand how after....well, everything in the last decade they continue to be in power.
What are their selling points?
Are they really thriving just of superficial things like waving the flag and defending statues of Churchill from made up attacks?
I like you in this thread.
 
Labour hadn't completely lost Scotland under Blair, though. That's a decent chunk of seats right there that Blair had as standard that Starmer (or any other Labour leader) are never getting back.

Labour and the left need to stop deluding themselves and realise under our undemocratic FPTP system,Tory gerrymandering as well as losing Scotland, they will never be winning an outright majority.
Blair didn't actually need those Scottish seats in 1995, 2001 he would of need them in 2005 where he would of been 10 seats short of a majority. That's how ridiculous his majorities were.

So they don't need to 'win' back Scotland, loosing the North as well is what has completely shafted them.
 
Blair didn't actually need those Scottish seats in 1995, 2001 he would of need them in 2005 where he would of been 10 seats short of a majority. That's how ridiculous his majorities were.

So they don't need to 'win' back Scotland, loosing the North as well is what has completely shafted them.

Yeah, kind of double/triple ****** now.
 
Well I do remember new Labour and even voted for it, it came after nearly a decade and half of very difficult but also quite fun times and in retrospect John Major was a pretty good PM by todays low standards but the country was desperate for a change and it got one and it wasn't that bad. Yes taxes went up but then so did public spending, borrowing wasn't anywhere near the last 10 years and we were a big player on the world stage.

Did New Labour do everything right? absolutely not the war in Iraq, Tuition fees and complete unlimited EU mass immigration which in the end caused a chain of reactions that ended in Brexit but overall society felt like it was moving forward as opposed to now it feels like we are slipping back into some Cold war type situation only without the relative stability the cold war gave.
Yeah it had some massive blunders there also the economic crisis which pretty much killed Brown despite now if you look at the numbers he was doing a pretty good job navigating it. But it was just another death knell in people wanting change.

Its a bit weird looking back at it now but the 2012 Olympics which felt like at the time Britain asserting its global outlook on the world stage was actually the final hurrah of that era of Britain.
 
Well I do remember new Labour and even voted for it, it came after nearly a decade and half of very difficult but also quite fun times and in retrospect John Major was a pretty good PM by todays low standards but the country was desperate for a change and it got one and it wasn't that bad. Yes taxes went up but then so did public spending, borrowing wasn't anywhere near the last 10 years and we were a big player on the world stage.

Did New Labour do everything right? absolutely not the war in Iraq, Tuition fees and complete unlimited EU mass immigration which in the end caused a chain of reactions that ended in Brexit but overall society felt like it was moving forward as opposed to now it feels like we are slipping back into some Cold war type situation only without the relative stability the cold war gave.

An accurate comment based on people's beliefs but which is laced with inaccuracies, and that's the crux of the problem. Blaming others for issues.
 
Still a 16% swing from Labour to Conservatives would suggest it is pretty bad for Labour. I see Mandy is blaming Corbyn and Covid for the result.

Starmer staying very quiet on this.
The 16% swing number assumes those people went from voting Lab to Con. Its not really helpful under FPTP when there are more than one party involved. The 10% of votes lost is more worrying but those likely went IDP rather than Con.

That'll definitely be the Lab line for now, Starmer not saying anything on his doorstep is hardly surprising. Probably hoping Council elections, Welsh, Scottish and Mayoral will be far better then losing one seat will be less a story and he can sell a different line.
 
A significant comment which is laced with inaccuracies
How is it? All western European countries apart from the UK initially put limits on open border immigration. The UK didn't and it didn't try and justify it. The only people who would talk about immigration were UKIP and BNP which fed already deep suspicions around immigration and the EU.
 
Yeah it had some massive blunders there also the economic crisis which pretty much killed Brown despite now if you look at the numbers he was doing a pretty good job navigating it. But it was just another death knell in people wanting change.

Its a bit weird looking back at it now but the 2012 Olympics which felt like at the time Britain asserting its global outlook on the world stage was actually the final hurrah of that era of Britain.
Too be honest the Western world has been going wrong since 9/11. Massive amounts of money have been poured into several wars that were never winnable and the focus switched off China and Russia who are now in a position where they can undermind our democracies and economies.
 

Some 'proper' analysis on council results, pro-Leave places have gone more Brexity since 2016 or probably more likely those who voted leave in 2016 were happy to vote Lab on councils which since has been seen more of a "remain" party (I never understand how Lab under Corbyn managed that, he ****** off every staunch remainer I knew). Looks like remain areas haven't ditched Lab much or if at all so that vote is 'holding' although how soft it is remains to be seen.
 
The 16% swing number assumes those people went from voting Lab to Con. Its not really helpful under FPTP when there are more than one party involved. The 10% of votes lost is more worrying but those likely went IDP rather than Con.

That'll definitely be the Lab line for now, Starmer not saying anything on his doorstep is hardly surprising. Probably hoping Council elections, Welsh, Scottish and Mayoral will be far better then losing one seat will be less a story and he can sell a different line.


Sir John Curtis saying a combination of factors including collapse of the Brexit party vote, Labour's vote and also as you said 10% going to the independent candidate.

Still, a bad result for Labour whatever way you look at it. Especially for a former Labour stronghold.
 
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