All Blacks 2021-2023 Thread

[Umaga's Witness]

So plumtree and moar out, Ryan in. I feel bad for fiji. Also it's interesting that there is no replacement for moar. And that McLeod has retained his place when defence has been woeful at best.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Changes to All Blacks need to happen for Ian Foster to survive, former coach Laurie Mains believes

Laurie Mains feels Ian Foster is under more pressure than anyone who's ever been All Blacks coach before, but feels he can turn the team around.

www.stuff.co.nz

 

[Alex Anghel]

So plumtree and moar out, Ryan in. I feel bad for fiji. Also it's interesting that there is no replacement for moar. And that McLeod has retained his place when defence has been woeful at best.

They were Foster's scapegoats…

I hope South Africa crushes New Zealand in these back to back August RC games, so that the NZRU have the balls to sack Foster and bring in what could be the ultimately All Blacks dream team: Robertson, Ryan, MacDonald and Joe Schmidt.

 

[GoTheNaki]

They were Foster's scapegoats…

I hope South Africa crushes New Zealand in these back to back August RC games, so that the NZRU have the balls to sack Foster and bring in what could be the ultimately All Blacks dream team: Robertson, Ryan, MacDonald and Joe Schmidt.

Can only hope...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I'm not 100% on the whole situation but my understanding is that Reece cops a lot less flack because he fully owned up to his actions, faced significant consequences, seeked help and has since made steps to better himself.

Frizell on the other hand received a 2 match ban and AFAIK didn't face any legal consequences. I by no means love that Reece is still involved in the ABs set up but I do think that he's a lot more palatable than Frizell.

dont get me wrong...would rather not have either as im still of the feeling playing international rugby should be a privilege, an honor

but yeah, pretty much what you said, and there is a small difference for me that reeces incident was before making the AB's and so he had made motions to atone...as much as you can, and yes, lost his overseas big money contract etc

where as frizell has been in the AB's for a couple of years and so i would have higher expectations, he also used his "diversion" to avoid a conviction....something most people might use if theyre caught taking a **** in public...or nicking a road sign...not punching a woman and then tracking them down on social media to threaten them the next day

 

[Umaga's Witness]

They were Foster's scapegoats…

I hope South Africa crushes New Zealand in these back to back August RC games, so that the NZRU have the balls to sack Foster and bring in what could be the ultimately All Blacks dream team: Robertson, Ryan, MacDonald and Joe Schmidt.

I agree they are scapegoats, though not necessarily just fosters scapegoats, I would say they are the nzru scapegoats. They had to make some changes to show they were doing something. But it's certainly not clear they made the right ones, or all the right ones. Their process probably involved deciding what the minimum change was to keep the public at bay. Getting rid of two assistants and not replacing one was the best they could afford. Foster couldn't have taken over any of the other roles, so attack coach was the easy decision . Plumtree reviews poorly last year so if they got rid of him it would look like they knew what they were doing, plus they probably couldn't find a decent defence coach to replace McLeod

Interested to hear what are the things you are seeing that point to foster being a bigger problem than his assistants. I'm grateful this forum exists where people provide reasonable and humble comments as opposed to the blood thirsty frenzy from people that have no idea on stuff comments and elsewhere.

I mean I have my reasons for thinking fosters head coaching hasn't been the best but I'm interested to hear yours. I also have plenty of reasons for suggesting the assistants have been poor, that the opposition has been good, that the players aren't as good as what they used to be, that there's not such great evidence to suggest that robertson would be the degree of savior people think he will be.

Also I think its really not worth one's while to care so much about the World Cup that they are willing to support the opposition in the hope that the coach gets dropped so we have more chance of winning the World Cup. At the absolute best we will go from 15 to 30 per cent chance of winning. Even the 2015 all blacks didn't go into the World Cup with more than 50 per cent odds of winning. So it seems like self sabotage to put all your eggs in the World Cup basket when your team will most likely lose anyway. Better to enjoy games outside the World Cup too.

 

[WaterboySA]

They were Foster's scapegoats…

I hope South Africa crushes New Zealand in these back to back August RC games, so that the NZRU have the balls to sack Foster and bring in what could be the ultimately All Blacks dream team: Robertson, Ryan, MacDonald and Joe Schmidt.

South Africa is not good enough to do that....not even close.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

im embarrassed we seem to have been so blatant is just trying stop PGS playing for Fiji

I believe Schmidt only selected the squad, he's not travelling to South Africa so would be hard placed to help with the 23

I have seen reports Leon Macdonald and jason Ryan have been tapped up for the AB's assistants...extrapolating that out quite a lot...Fozzie to step down on return from SA and Schmidt, Macdonald and Ryan going forward?

Huh, I wonder if Macdonald said no out of loyalty to razor.

I also reckon you are right about there being an issue with foster not getting the team to respect the all blacks Jersey. Previous coaches like Henry and Wayne smith did a great job of promoting the not ok to ever lose mentality. Hansen wasn't too bad at it but This stopped happening with Ireland in Chicago; prior to that we'd only not put our top team if we knew we were going to win anyway. There were a few risky selections in that game; I remember thinking when the team was picked that we had gone too far, that Ireland was good enough to beat the team we selected and we were risking our record and f never having lost to Ireland, which I like many other fans thought was a record to be very proud of.

Ironically given fans want foster out because they don't trust him to take us to the World Cup, Foster has taken this mentality that only the World Cup matters.

But it goes both ways - upholding the aura within the team helps us win, but the sense of an aura from outside the team helps our opposition lose too. The aura simply isn't there anymore for most opposition - the springboks never really felt it, Ireland, france, and england probably won't be affected by it. Maybe not argentina either now they've beaten us. Wales and scotland probably feel the aura still but we'd beat them anyway (probably).

 

[Eleutherarch]

Ironically given fans want foster out because they don't trust him to take us to the World Cup, Foster has taken this mentality that only the World Cup matters.

But it goes both ways - upholding the aura within the team helps us win, but the sense of an aura from outside the team helps our opposition lose too. The aura simply isn't there anymore for most opposition - the springboks never really felt it, Ireland, france, and england probably won't be affected by it. Maybe not argentina either now they've beaten us. Wales and scotland probably feel the aura still but we'd beat them anyway (probably).

I think Foster has adopted the "WC is the only thing that matters" mantra because it is the only thing that will be able to rescue his legacy. It's quite different to Eddie's obsession of being on the cusp but not over the line.

I think you're dead on about the jersey and its downstream effects on aura, accountability and success. Win ratio is more important than trinkets and jewellery. Any team can have a bad day or be outplayed by a team in a divinely inspired flow state in knockout rugby. I'm still annoyed about the double loss to the Wallabies last year. Success over time is dominance.

World Cup wins are nice but double-edged. After that, laziness can bloom with all the accolades and the obvious deficiencies are papered over with the "still reigning champs" ********. It's why that AB run was so special - they actually got much better after 2011 and stayed hungry up until the point all those greats retired. The rot set in afterwards.

Side note - do you think that Ryan took that post with Robinson's blessing so as to have some boots on the ground to provide intel? Seems like a good way to prep for a transition when he gets the top job inevitably.

 

[RedruthRFC]

South Africa is not good enough to do that....not even close.

Maybe it's not just Foster whose job should be under threat. There's barely a position that the incumbent for South Africa isn't in the conversation for being the best in the world and the depth in the tight five is unparalleled.

 

[Alex Anghel]

I agree they are scapegoats, though not necessarily just fosters scapegoats, I would say they are the nzru scapegoats. They had to make some changes to show they were doing something. But it's certainly not clear they made the right ones, or all the right ones. Their process probably involved deciding what the minimum change was to keep the public at bay. Getting rid of two assistants and not replacing one was the best they could afford. Foster couldn't have taken over any of the other roles, so attack coach was the easy decision . Plumtree reviews poorly last year so if they got rid of him it would look like they knew what they were doing, plus they probably couldn't find a decent defence coach to replace McLeod

Interested to hear what are the things you are seeing that point to foster being a bigger problem than his assistants. I'm grateful this forum exists where people provide reasonable and humble comments as opposed to the blood thirsty frenzy from people that have no idea on stuff comments and elsewhere.

I mean I have my reasons for thinking fosters head coaching hasn't been the best but I'm interested to hear yours. I also have plenty of reasons for suggesting the assistants have been poor, that the opposition has been good, that the players aren't as good as what they used to be, that there's not such great evidence to suggest that robertson would be the degree of savior people think he will be.

Also I think its really not worth one's while to care so much about the World Cup that they are willing to support the opposition in the hope that the coach gets dropped so we have more chance of winning the World Cup. At the absolute best we will go from 15 to 30 per cent chance of winning. Even the 2015 all blacks didn't go into the World Cup with more than 50 per cent odds of winning. So it seems like self sabotage to put all your eggs in the World Cup basket when your team will most likely lose anyway. Better to enjoy games outside the World Cup too.

I don't know where to start, to be honest, there's so much to say about this NZRU trainwreck that started after the Lions series and got even worse after the travesty that was Ian Foster's appointment back in December 2019...I will however try to summarize my thoughts in connection thereof:

- Plumtree and Mooar were Foster's scapegoats because he chose them and not NZRU. Remember when they were lauded by Foster as being part of an ideal coaching setup that ticks all the boxes? Ironically, although one of the reasons for which Razor's application as All Blacks HC was rejected was that his proposed coaching setup was supposedly weaker than Foster's...now both Plumtree and Mooar have been sacked, while Jason Ryan has been appointed as the All Blacks forwards coach;

- The first major mistake that Foster made was appointing Sam Cane as Captain, without a minute of rugby being played in NZ that season. Sam Cane was a great All-Black, but at the time of his nomination and surely after, he wasn't probably near the Top 3 opensides in NZ. The problem with his appointment was/is that the team had to carry him in the starting lineup, forcing other players to be played out of position (i.e. Ardie Savea, Papali'i) and destabilizing the whole back row;

- He persisted with players way past their prime and has not developed any talent NZ oozes with. Just to give you an example, although both Whitelock and Retallick are aging, I don't see any younger lock to have been granted a significant amount of game time ever since he took the job;

- His head coaching record in SR is abysmal and when it comes to the All Blacks, it could have been even worse had not been for Italy, US, Tonga or Fiji. In comparison, Razor's coaching abilities proved to be phenomenal, as he won with the Crusaders 6 SR championships in a row, with either aging or departing All Blacks...how many SR trophies did Todd Blackadder win with one of the finest players the All Backs have ever seen?

- Where are now the members of the old boys club that heavily advertised for Foster (re)appointment? One of the most stupid mistakes the NZRU has ever done was reappointing Foster prior to the 2021 Northern Tour, but Sir Steve Hansen told the public it was a no brainer...;

- I don't buy the argument that the All Blacks players are not that good...in my humble opinion, the team is poorly selected and coached;

- The bottom line is that, strictly playing wise, they need to select the best players for each position and not go the out-of-position route anymore.

Sorry if my message came too long, but it saddens me to see the All Blacks in such a poor state.

 

[die_mole]

keeping Cane at captain really confuses me. He's just not good enough to be included in the squad automatically. They played really well in 2021 without him and I'm sure there is leadership elsewhere in the squad.

 

[mania]

im glad plumtrees gone. when he was last in the canes he wanted to bring johnMitchell into coach the Lions with the vision of promoting him to the hurricanes eventually. everyone at NZRFU voted against bringing Mitchell back

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I don't know where to start, to be honest, there's so much to say about this NZRU trainwreck that started after the Lions series and got even worse after the travesty that was Ian Foster's appointment back in December 2019...I will however try to summarize my thoughts in connection thereof:

- Plumtree and Mooar were Foster's scapegoats because he chose them and not NZRU. Remember when they were lauded by Foster as being part of an ideal coaching setup that ticks all the boxes? Ironically, although one of the reasons for which Razor's application as All Blacks HC was rejected was that his proposed coaching setup was supposedly weaker than Foster's...now both Plumtree and Mooar have been sacked, while Jason Ryan has been appointed as the All Blacks forwards coach;

- The first major mistake that Foster made was appointing Sam Cane as Captain, without a minute of rugby being played in NZ that season. Sam Cane was a great All-Black, but at the time of his nomination and surely after, he wasn't probably near the Top 3 opensides in NZ. The problem with his appointment was/is that the team had to carry him in the starting lineup, forcing other players to be played out of position (i.e. Ardie Savea, Papali'i) and destabilizing the whole back row;

- He persisted with players way past their prime and has not developed any talent NZ oozes with. Just to give you an example, although both Whitelock and Retallick are aging, I don't see any younger lock to have been granted a significant amount of game time ever since he took the job;

- His head coaching record in SR is abysmal and when it comes to the All Blacks, it could have been even worse had not been for Italy, US, Tonga or Fiji. In comparison, Razor's coaching abilities proved to be phenomenal, as he won with the Crusaders 6 SR championships in a row, with either aging or departing All Blacks...how many SR trophies did Todd Blackadder win with one of the finest players the All Backs have ever seen?

- Where are now the members of the old boys club that heavily advertised for Foster (re)appointment? One of the most stupid mistakes the NZRU has ever done was reappointing Foster prior to the 2021 Northern Tour, but Sir Steve Hansen told the public it was a no brainer...;

- I don't buy the argument that the All Blacks players are not that good...in my humble opinion, the team is poorly selected and coached;

- The bottom line is that, strictly playing wise, they need to select the best players for each position and not go the out-of-position route anymore.

Sorry if my message came too long, but it saddens me to see the All Blacks in such a poor state.

...if you're going to post nothing but pure sense then thats really going to kill the conversation....agree with all this

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Stuart Barnes at his provocative best in the Telegraph likening Cane to Chris Robshaw in the Stuart Lancaster era and saying that he was schooled by Van der Flier and wouldn't be good enough to get in the Aussie team. Or the Boks. Or the English. Or the Welsh. Or the French. Or the Scottish. Or even the Italians!

 

[will311293]

Its really odd having a weakened NZ, much weaker than i've ever seen. The funny thing i've noticed and i'd be interested to see the general opinion of those more in the know for Super XV rugby, but what is the defence like for the majority of teams. It felt like at times for NZ but also Australia that they would try and soak up the attack and fire every ruck before counter attack and surge past the oppositions defence. However, the likes of England and Ireland have really abbrasive and physical defences that don't gift many opportunities.

In my opinion the NZ defence was hugely outmatched by the Irish defence and couldn't cope. Now thats never going to be a case of being less physical but its clear that NZ defenders weren't always acting as a defensive unit or were on their own at times.

The other thing that i personally thought was interesting was if i lined up the NZ Vs Ireland scrum, who would i pick? Apart from Savea, i'd find it hard to look past most of the Irish pack, man for man and what their job spec is.... your picking the irish pack. As stated earlier Whitelock and Retallick back in the day were excellent but Ryan and Beirne were on top. I wouldn't have picked Scott Barrett at 6 (he's not like Lawes or Itoje for example) and we have heard lots on Sam Cane.

What's interesting is also is that this doesn't feel like a new thing learnt from this series. The NZ team really hasn't been challenged for the last 2-3 years.

Post 2019 World Cup,

2020 Tri Nations: 2/4 wins - (43-5 W vs Aus, 38-0 W vs Arg but also 24-22 L Aus and 25-15 L Arg)

2020 Bledisloe Cup: 1/2 wins (1 draw) - 27-7 W and 16-16 Draw

2021 Steinlager Series 3/3 wins - 102 - 0 vs Tonga, 57-23 vs Fiji, 60-13 vs Fiji

2021 Bledisloe Cup: 3/3 wins - 33 -25, 57-22, 38-21

2021 Fortinet Rugby Championship - 3/4 wins - 39-0 W vs Arg, 36-16 W vs Arg, 19-17 W vs SA, 31-29 L vs SA

2021 Tudor All Blacks Northern Tour - 3/5 wins - 104-14 W vs USA, 54-16 W vs Wales, 47-9 W vs Italy, 29-20 L vs Ireland, 40-25 L vs France

2022 Steinlager Series - 1/3 wins - 42-19 W vs Ireland, 23-12 L vs Ireland, 32-22 L vs Ireland

You can see that NZ's fixtures over last couple of years has been hugely inflated. 16 Wins, 1 Draw and 7 Losses isn't great for NZ team. However, more interestingly out of 7 games vs Northern Hemisphere sides, they have won 3/7 with wins vs a poor welsh side at the time, Italy and Ireland in the first test. Ireland and France have clearly shown they are better teams at the moment and even England back in 2019 world cup.

NZ have also seen a lack of discipline and its probably linked to the differential in reffing standards between the two hemispheres. Southern hemisphere seems to let a lot more go but there is a general push for tougher rulings in the North. I'm not saying i agree with the "absorbing tackles" and probably think that the difference between the red for Taavao on Ringrose and that of the yellow for Porter vs Retallick was very minimal. I understand that porter wasn't going forward but still clear bad head contact, in both tackles neither player was low. In the northern hemisphere that sort of tackle has been cut out fairly well by the fact its virtually always a yellow or a red now a days, if anything its aggressively overpolicied at times but im not sure how much that happens in Southern.

Im just very interested to see the NZ Northern Tour in November. We know were Ireland and France are vs NZ but a combination of England, Scotland and Wales will push NZ and their progression since this Ireland series. England forwards have shown they are fairly dominant at times and the team can produce something but is transitioning very similar to the Welsh side who have some cracking players coming through. Scotland too are probably in the best position with the likes of Hogg and Russell back in the starting line up will be aggressive and go for it.

Its going to be a very interesting Nov in deed for the all blacks.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

It felt like at times for NZ but also Australia that they would try and soak up the attack and fire every ruck before counter attack and surge past the oppositions defence. However, the likes of England and Ireland have really abbrasive and physical defences that don't gift many opportunities.

thats been exactly NZ primary game plan for several years, let "them" have the ball...soak it up (see why a tackler like cane was picked at 7 rather than a jackle)...force a turnover and strike from anywhere on the field...it use to work but everyone is very wise to it now...and we dont have the same weapons as we did in 2015 for example...and we dont seem to have a clue how to play a different way

 

[Umaga's Witness]

I don't know where to start, to be honest, there's so much to say about this NZRU trainwreck that started after the Lions series and got even worse after the travesty that was Ian Foster's appointment back in December 2019...I will however try to summarize my thoughts in connection thereof:

- Plumtree and Mooar were Foster's scapegoats because he chose them and not NZRU. Remember when they were lauded by Foster as being part of an ideal coaching setup that ticks all the boxes? Ironically, although one of the reasons for which Razor's application as All Blacks HC was rejected was that his proposed coaching setup was supposedly weaker than Foster's...now both Plumtree and Mooar have been sacked, while Jason Ryan has been appointed as the All Blacks forwards coach;

- The first major mistake that Foster made was appointing Sam Cane as Captain, without a minute of rugby being played in NZ that season. Sam Cane was a great All-Black, but at the time of his nomination and surely after, he wasn't probably near the Top 3 opensides in NZ. The problem with his appointment was/is that the team had to carry him in the starting lineup, forcing other players to be played out of position (i.e. Ardie Savea, Papali'i) and destabilizing the whole back row;

- He persisted with players way past their prime and has not developed any talent NZ oozes with. Just to give you an example, although both Whitelock and Retallick are aging, I don't see any younger lock to have been granted a significant amount of game time ever since he took the job;

- His head coaching record in SR is abysmal and when it comes to the All Blacks, it could have been even worse had not been for Italy, US, Tonga or Fiji. In comparison, Razor's coaching abilities proved to be phenomenal, as he won with the Crusaders 6 SR championships in a row, with either aging or departing All Blacks...how many SR trophies did Todd Blackadder win with one of the finest players the All Backs have ever seen?

- Where are now the members of the old boys club that heavily advertised for Foster (re)appointment? One of the most stupid mistakes the NZRU has ever done was reappointing Foster prior to the 2021 Northern Tour, but Sir Steve Hansen told the public it was a no brainer...;

- I don't buy the argument that the All Blacks players are not that good...in my humble opinion, the team is poorly selected and coached;

- The bottom line is that, strictly playing wise, they need to select the best players for each position and not go the out-of-position route anymore.

Sorry if my message came too long, but it saddens me to see the All Blacks in such a poor state.

Well, I'll see if I can limit my reply.

On your first point; fair. I couldn't believe moar was picked in particular. And Yeah there is an irony in Ryan being picked when razor insisted on him and Macdonald despite none of the three of them having international experience, which was ultimately the reason why razor didn't get the job as the nzru wanted at least some international experience in the setup. I could see nzru's point, and they were being safe and really didn't have a lot of evidence at the time to suggest razors group would be successful (or maybe the selectors didn't analyse the coaches closely enough). Now though, it is clear Ryan is the bees knees (crusaders haven't conceded a maul try in five or six years. That alone has been the difference between winning and losing in many crusaders games, especially when moar was the attack coach) . If brown hadn't withdrawn his assistant offer that might have been enough to convince nzru that razor was the better candidate. If rennie or brown applied they'd surely have got the job. But who knows.

On your second point. Fairish. I never saw why cane should be captain but we were told he had the respect of the players and we wouldn't know if that's true. Cane actually played well in 2020 too. But not so much now. Ardie isn't playing too bad at 8 either although we'll have to wait and see how that goes against the boks. He's a great seven.

On your third point: I'm not sure about that. Whitelock and retallick are still by a long way our best locks. Not sure who else you could say are old and have been persisted with. And vaai has had reasonable game time. If he did play younger locks more we'd just lose more and people would complain about him more. Also, if it's just the World Cup you care about then note that no team wins the World Cup with young locks.

On your fourth point, there's no reason to attribute those records solely or even primarily to the head coaches that way. Head coaches are often less important than assistants. I agree that there might be something in those records but I'd also caution taking them too far given foster was head coach a long time ago and razors record is at super rugby level (also blackadder and his assistants, apart from in his last year, did an incredibly bad job given the team they had was easily the best in the comp on paper year after year)

I don't get your fifth point, Hansen has no obligation to tell the media what he's thinking.

Your sixth point. What I notice is that there are some all blacks fans stuck in this idea that we have by far the best playing stocks in the world. thinking our stocks are great correlates very strongly with being an all black fan and not watching a lot of rugby over the years and not watching a lot of rugby from other countries. I agree with what Wayne smith said many years ago that South Africa have the best player stocks, and will do for the foreseeable future. I've watched more than 99 per cent of all super rugby matches that have involved a NZ team in History. To me, we used to have a superior skillset. I've seen that declining. And it makes sense as we don't have anything near the same culture as we used to in terms of people playing rugby at lunch time or in the back yard. I also watch most tier one test matches and every year I make sure I watch a selection of club/provincial level games from Europe - especially the Heineken cup semis and finals . Other countries skill sets have significantly improved. And then you also get people thinking we should win because we have some fast and strong backs. Well, forwards matter more quite frankly. And for forward it's work rate (fitness and stamina) and smarts that matter most as well as size .The European sides have many more mcaw like individuals than we do. Also, look at the 2015 team (who Almost lost the World Cup semifinal) and tell me how many players we have now who could make that team. Pardon? None? We also haven't been winning under 20s for a while.

On your last point, you are prob right

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Stuart Barnes at his provocative best in the Telegraph likening Cane to Chris Robshaw in the Stuart Lancaster era and saying that he was schooled by Van der Flier and wouldn't be good enough to get in the Aussie team. Or the Boks. Or the English. Or the Welsh. Or the French. Or the Scottish. Or even the Italians!

It's not that bad an insult; the sevens in all those teams are pretty good.

I think Foster has adopted the "WC is the only thing that matters" mantra because it is the only thing that will be able to rescue his legacy. It's quite different to Eddie's obsession of being on the cusp but not over the line.

I think you're dead on about the jersey and its downstream effects on aura, accountability and success. Win ratio is more important than trinkets and jewellery. Any team can have a bad day or be outplayed by a team in a divinely inspired flow state in knockout rugby. I'm still annoyed about the double loss to the Wallabies last year. Success over time is dominance.

World Cup wins are nice but double-edged. After that, laziness can bloom with all the accolades and the obvious deficiencies are papered over with the "still reigning champs" ********. It's why that AB run was so special - they actually got much better after 2011 and stayed hungry up until the point all those greats retired. The rot set in afterwards.

Side note - do you think that Ryan took that post with Robinson's blessing so as to have some boots on the ground to provide intel? Seems like a good way to prep for a transition when he gets the top job inevitably.

Robertson would have given his blessings because he'd be a dick not to. And he owes Ryan for his reputation. There have been many games that the crusaders attack looked pretty dire apart from their maul and or their maul defense and scrum kept them in the game. Especially when moar was attack coach; that's why it always shocked me when I heard moar was coaching in the all blacks.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The mighty All Blacks are falling. Can they rule world rugby again?

Fans are mourning New Zealand rugby’s cherished aura of invincibility, but the harder truth is it may never come back

www.theguardian.com