All Blacks in the ITM Cup

[Shaggy]

Shaggy.

Remember the saying about "a rose by any other name....." ? Well it applies here.

The five Super Rugby franchises are linked with several Provincial Unions from the semi-professional ITM Cup and the wholly amateur Heartland Championship. In a practical sense Super Rugby players are drawn from the ITM Cup sides within their franchise borders. However, although there is no draft as such, players can negotiate with another franchise to play for them instead of the franchise their Provincial Union is in. This is where you get players like Zac Guildford (Hawkes Bay/Crusaders) and Jarrad Hoeata (Taranaki/Highlanders). The Boards of Super Rugby franchises and Provincial Unions are now separate entities. Franchises wishing to contract a player from outside their catchment are not allowed to use inducements to lure players to switch ITM Cup teams. The NZRU looks very suspiciously on players who suddenly switch both Franchise and ITM Cup teams.

For those who haven't seen this, here are maps showing which Provincial Union are in which Franchise Areas.

Thanks Cooky ... that's pretty much what I thought ... I guess the down side of the whole "All Blacks playing no games/few games" for their ITM cup side, is the "Bang for buck"/is the ITM cup side getting value for money from their All Blacks. I think i remember reading an article where the Tasman CEO, Peter? Barr, when discussing Ben Franks departure to canterbury, implied that he wasn't that upset, as Franks was costing Tasman NZD 50,000, and the money could better spent elsewhere.

... mind you, that was before the international season started ... he might get to play a few more games at ITM level, now that he doesn't seem to be being selected for the AB's

Jabby ... I do get the sentiment here ... I kind of miss the old North V South format (not the one played this year) ... back in the day, these had most of the top contenders or current All Blacks playing in them, and they were effectively All Black trial matches.

I guess getting back to your point, on the up side, it's something of a special occasion when the All Blacks do get to play for their ITM cup side, and makes the occasion more memorable, but I guess "unavailability" is something that effects side all the way down the rugby food chain.

All Blacks unavailable for Super Rugby to keep them fresh for Internationals/unavailable for ITM cup due to International commitments > ITM Representatives not available for club rugby due to rep commitments etc

... Although I'll admit I've lost touch with the NZ club scene, so I'm not sure if this is still the case

 

[donmcdazzle]

The best thing for the development of players has been extending the ITM cup to 14 teams. In the past players would leave smaller unions due to them being in the 2nd division, so they would go to a bigger union in 1st division to try and get exposure. Teams like Manawatu used to lose good young guys who wanted to play 1st division. So the bigger unions would get the young talent and keep beating the smaller ones. This drain to bigger unions is still there (think the Whitelocks) but to a lesser extent and now you get the odd season where a small union can upset a few big boys which is great.

I just wish that the ITM cup was the main competition rather than Super Rugby and a Heineken Cup type thing existed between SANZAR countries. People have much more loyalty to their provinces I think and are more likely to support them rather than a franchise who may have a team full of guys from all over the place. I am theoretically in the Hurricanes region but I don't support them at all, I bet there is a lot of people from other provinces on the margins that are the same. Would be great if we could see Aaron Cruden and Aaron Smith at the peak of their powers playing for the Turbos rather than for the Chiefs and Highlanders.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The best thing for the development of players has been extending the ITM cup to 14 teams. In the past players would leave smaller unions due to them being in the 2nd division, so they would go to a bigger union in 1st division to try and get exposure. Teams like Manawatu used to lose good young guys who wanted to play 1st division. So the bigger unions would get the young talent and keep beating the smaller ones. This drain to bigger unions is still there (think the Whitelocks) but to a lesser extent and now you get the odd season where a small union can upset a few big boys which is great.

I just wish that the ITM cup was the main competition rather than Super Rugby and a Heineken Cup type thing existed between SANZAR countries. People have much more loyalty to their provinces I think and are more likely to support them rather than a franchise who may have a team full of guys from all over the place. I am theoretically in the Hurricanes region but I don't support them at all, I bet there is a lot of people from other provinces on the margins that are the same. Would be great if we could see Aaron Cruden and Aaron Smith at the peak of their powers playing for the Turbos rather than for the Chiefs and Highlanders.

I think the direct contracting as enabled these guys to saty with the smaller unions and still get game time in super rugby too


biggest campaginer for the top five npc teams each year playing super rugby the next year right here!...but thats a different argument

 

[Shaggy]

The best thing for the development of players has been extending the ITM cup to 14 teams. In the past players would leave smaller unions due to them being in the 2nd division, so they would go to a bigger union in 1st division to try and get exposure. Teams like Manawatu used to lose good young guys who wanted to play 1st division. So the bigger unions would get the young talent and keep beating the smaller ones. This drain to bigger unions is still there (think the Whitelocks) but to a lesser extent and now you get the odd season where a small union can upset a few big boys which is great.

I just wish that the ITM cup was the main competition rather than Super Rugby and a Heineken Cup type thing existed between SANZAR countries. People have much more loyalty to their provinces I think and are more likely to support them rather than a franchise who may have a team full of guys from all over the place. I am theoretically in the Hurricanes region but I don't support them at all, I bet there is a lot of people from other provinces on the margins that are the same. Would be great if we could see Aaron Cruden and Aaron Smith at the peak of their powers playing for the Turbos rather than for the Chiefs and Highlanders.

I agree with your first point there Don, that's one of the good things about professional rugby - that more players are retained by the smaller unions, because the opportunity for the players to further their careers now exists in those smaller unions ... in addition to the player exodus being not as great from those small unions, they are also picking up a few players from the larger unions, so the flow of players isn't one way anymore.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think the direct contracting as enabled these guys to saty with the smaller unions and still get game time in super rugby too


biggest campaginer for the top five npc teams each year playing super rugby the next year right here!...but thats a different argument

That'll just result in players all moving back to the main centres

But yes, that's neither here nor there...

 

[welshglory]

I've heard this suggestion on another forum.

How about if the ITM cup ran alongside Super rugby? It could sort of be like the Vodacom cup in South Africa, for wider training group players to get game time and youngsters as well.
You could have day games as curtain raisers for the Super match in the cities for instance.

Then in the slot that the NPC is in now, have a condensed competition. Sort of like the Currie Cup.

 

[nickdnz]

I've heard this suggestion on another forum.

How about if the ITM cup ran alongside Super rugby? It could sort of be like the Vodacom cup in South Africa, for wider training group players to get game time and youngsters as well.
You could have day games as curtain raisers for the Super match in the cities for instance.

Then in the slot that the NPC is in now, have a condensed competition. Sort of like the Currie Cup.

What would the point in that be? We already have a condensed competition as it is (NPC/ITM Cup is like the Curry Cup). We don't get enough people to SR games, never mind a Vodacom Cup style of competition.

 

[welshglory]

What would the point in that be? We already have a condensed competition as it is (NPC/ITM Cup is like the Curry Cup). We don't get enough people to SR games, never mind a Vodacom Cup style of competition.

If the ITM cup is basically just a development competition like smartcooky says then why not?

At the moment you have this ridiculous format where there are midweek games, which have clearly not caught the imagination of the public.

If you play it parallel to Super rugby you could then have a proper schedule, give players game time at a good level and a chance to break into the Super rugby team.

As Super rugby continues to grow/expand there won't be much room for the NPC.

It's just a suggestion.

 

[Tekadus7]

In my honest opinion, internationals, itm cup and superugby shouldn't overlap with each other at all. However, there's not enough time in the year. I would like it if all provinces in the ITM Cup were able to field All Blacks, because without them, some of them perform alot worse. Manawatu with the Aarons were top side in the championship, and now they're lingering near the bottom of the barrel.

 

[nickdnz]

In my honest opinion, internationals, itm cup and superugby shouldn't overlap with each other at all. However, there's not enough time in the year. I would like it if all provinces in the ITM Cup were able to field All Blacks, because without them, some of them perform alot worse. Manawatu with the Aarons were top side in the championship, and now they're lingering near the bottom of the barrel.

Yeah, they were a good sign when those two players who should have been in the AB's but weren't were there. Imagin how Manawatu would have done if every team had their best players...not much better. Wouldn't mind seeing Wellington field a backline of Tj Peranara, Lima Sapoaga, Hosea Gear, Ma'a Nonu, Conrad Smith, Julian Savea, Cory Jane...