All Blacks rest 9 senior players for 3N tour to SA

[TRF_stormer2010]

Squad of 25 named for SA tour in the 3N competition;

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7094447,00.html


All Blacks squad
Forwards: John Afoa, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Jarrad Hoeata, Andrew Hore, Jerome Kaino, Keven Mealamu, Liam Messam, Adam Thomson, Samuel Whitelock, Ali Williams, Tony Woodcock and Victor Vito.
Backs: Jimmy Cowan, Israel Dagg, Andy Ellis, Hosea Gear, Zac Guildford, Richard Kahui, Cory Jane, Ma'a Nonu, Colin Slade, Isaia Toeava, Piri Weepu, Sonny Bill Williams.


Makes sense. I'm just wondering whether those who spewed venom at SA for cottoning injured players will do the same with NZ. Will O'Neill be up in arms again? Will SANZAR launch another invetigation? They won't because SANZAR is a joke. Like I said in the Aus vs SA in Sydney thread, if we were gonna rest players just for the sake of rest we'd have simply said so like we did in 2007.

 

[Jer1cho]

Meh, I was really hoping Dagg wouldn't come. That guy could beat us by himself.

Anyway, after this test against Aus to get our boys back into rhythm, I think if NZ field an understrength side, we will hammer them.

 

[Darwin]

Meh, I was really hoping Dagg wouldn't come. That guy could beat us by himself.

Anyway, after this test against Aus to get our boys back into rhythm, I think if NZ field an understrength side, we will hammer them.

I'd be very surprised if South Africa 'hammer' this All Blacks side... despite missing a few top players, I'd expect this side could compete with any team in the world. I'd imagine it will be a very close game.

 

[Jer1cho]

Sorry, bad choice of wording. I didn't mean hammer as in 'beat by a massive margin'. I meant dominate physically, and apply some serious pressure. My bad.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Uhm... i'm just wondering if this is a good idea so close to the World Cup? from a rythm and consistency perspective you would rather have the team play just before the world cup to work out some problems rather than to give fringe players a chance to show what they got...

When NZ choke in the world cup... this decision will be the reason,

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think so - think how long the season will have been for these players if they went all through Super Rugby, straight into 3N straight into the WC - especially for the Crusaders players who played in the final
Makes more sense to give them a bit of rest every now and then to keep them fresh for the world cup, rather than have them burn out and get injured

 

[TRF_heineken]

no i agree they should rest, but i think it would have been better to rest them the previous 3 international games.

 

[nickdnz]

Pfft. Of course this is a good idea. If we lose at a RWC, it will be because Dan Carter or Richie McCaw get injured, and there is no backup who has played top level rugby.

With a sqaud of:

1. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodocock
2. Kevin Mealamu (c)
3. Ben Franks/John Afoa
4. Samual Whitelock
5. Ali Williams
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Adam Thompson
8. Liam Messam
9. Piri Weepu
10. Colin Slade
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Isaia Toeava

16. Andrew Hore
17. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodcock
18. Tom Donnelly/Jarad Hoeata
19. Victor Vito
20. Jimmy Cowan
21. Sonny Bill Williams
22. Richard Kahui

Should be enough to challene and in my opinion, beat the Springboks, certainly based off thier last few performances. Fact is, there is no conspiracy in giving some fringe players the chance to start games. In fact that's required going into a World Cup. This is vastly different from saying "the reason 21 members of our team can't play is because of injury". New Zealand is still leading the Tri Nations at the moment, so it is far from riding off the Tri Nations to prepare for a RWC.

I'm still far from happy with not having an openside flanker, especially with Kieran Read also not in the squad. It is an area of the game that Brussow could punish us in. With that in mind, I thill think the players that are on tour are enough to beat the Boks and heck, even if they don't, all it would do is put pressure on the team to beat Australia again to win the tornement.

 

[Darwin]

Sorry, bad choice of wording. I didn't mean hammer as in 'beat by a massive margin'. I meant dominate physically, and apply some serious pressure. My bad.

Oh, fair enough then... I think it will be a very interesting game.

no i agree they should rest, but i think it would have been better to rest them the previous 3 international games.

Many of these players were rested versus Fiji and South Africa. The reason many are being rested for the South Africa tour as well is as much to do with the travel factor as anything else. I think the top AB's side will have had plenty of time together before their key RWC matches.

Pfft. Of course this is a good idea. If we lose at a RWC, it will be because Dan Carter or Richie McCaw get injured, and there is no backup who has played top level rugby.

With a sqaud of:

1. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodocock
2. Kevin Mealamu (c)
3. Ben Franks/John Afoa
4. Samual Whitelock
5. Ali Williams
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Adam Thompson
8. Liam Messam
9. Piri Weepu
10. Colin Slade
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Isaia Toeava

16. Andrew Hore
17. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodcock
18. Tom Donnelly/Jarad Hoeata
19. Victor Vito
20. Jimmy Cowan
21. Sonny Bill Williams
22. Richard Kahui

Should be enough to challene and in my opinion, beat the Springboks, certainly based off thier last few performances. Fact is, there is no conspiracy in giving some fringe players the chance to start games. In fact that's required going into a World Cup. This is vastly different from saying "the reason 21 members of our team can't play is because of injury". New Zealand is still leading the Tri Nations at the moment, so it is far from riding off the Tri Nations to prepare for a RWC.

I'm still far from happy with not having an openside flanker, especially with Kieran Read also not in the squad. It is an area of the game that Brussow could punish us in. With that in mind, I thill think the players that are on tour are enough to beat the Boks and heck, even if they don't, all it would do is put pressure on the team to beat Australia again to win the tornement.

As I mentioned in another thread, whoever out of Woodcock/Crockett doesn't start won't be in the 22, as they both can only cover loose-head prop. If Woodcock is fit I expect he will start. I know you want to try to get an entire Canes backline, but I don't think they will start either Weepu, Smith, or Nonu. Weepu is the backup 10 so I think will start on the bench, as I don't think they will want to play him for a full 80 mins (which he would have to if Slade got injured at any time during the game). Smith won't play as he is not going, and I think they will prefer to give SBW a start at 12 instead or Nonu. There is the option of a SBW/Nonu combo, but I think they will want to give Kahui a chance to impress. I think they will give Gear another chance to impress, but wouldn't be surprised to see him paired with Guildford, as they may be competing for one spot (though who they will take at this stage is still pretty open).

 

[Jer1cho]

1. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodocock
2. Kevin Mealamu (c)
3. Ben Franks/John Afoa
4. Samual Whitelock
5. Ali Williams
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Adam Thompson
8. Liam Messam
9. Piri Weepu
10. Colin Slade
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Isaia Toeava

I would have Toeava replaced by Dagg. As much as I hate the baby faced big mouthed fart, he is by far and away the best 15 I have seen in a very very long time. Whenever he joins the back-line I know a try is coming. I would also feel very VERY tempted to try out SBW at 12, with Kahui at 13. That would be a monster of a centre pairing. SBW is a beast, and if Kahui has your number, you are in for a painful night.

Also, is Matt Todd injured or did he just not make the cut? I would play him ahead of Kaino. New Zealand have some serious depth. If they do manage to beat us, which is extremely likely, It will send aout a big message, especially since Carter and McCaw are not there. The Springboks need to win both these games, otherwise I feel we will not have the confidence to defend our ***le in New Zealand. Both Aus and NZ need to be reminded that they can write us off at their own peril.

 

[Darwin]

I would have Toeava replaced by Dagg. As much as I hate the baby faced big mouthed fart, he is by far and away the best 15 I have seen in a very very long time. Whenever he joins the back-line I know a try is coming. I would also feel very VERY tempted to try out SBW at 12, with Kahui at 13. That would be a monster of a centre pairing. SBW is a beast, and if Kahui has your number, you are in for a painful night.

Dagg is very good, but Toeava is in another class in my opinion. Both a incredibly dangerous runners, but Toeava showed he is a much more complete player than Dagg during the Super Rugby season; his punting was huge, he was exceptional under the high ball, and his defence was rock solid. While Dagg can look good with the ball in hand, he is still very error prone.

I'm pretty sure the AB's will start SBW and Kahui as you suggest.

Also, is Matt Todd injured or did he just not make the cut? I would play him ahead of Kaino. New Zealand have some serious depth. If they do manage to beat us, which is extremely likely, It will send aout a big message, especially since Carter and McCaw are not there. The Springboks need to win both these games, otherwise I feel we will not have the confidence to defend our ***le in New Zealand. Both Aus and NZ need to be reminded that they can write us off at their own peril.

Todd didn't get selected, with the AB's selectors preferring Thomson as the backup 7. I would have quite liked to see either Todd or Luke Braid given a go for the AB's, but they have opted for the experience and versatility of Thomson and Messem. Thomson has actually played quite well so far, which has been quite a pleasant surprise for me.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pfft. Of course this is a good idea. If we lose at a RWC, it will be because Dan Carter or Richie McCaw get injured, and there is no backup who has played top level rugby.

With a sqaud of:

1. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodocock
2. Kevin Mealamu (c)
3. Ben Franks/John Afoa
4. Samual Whitelock
5. Ali Williams
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Adam Thompson
8. Liam Messam
9. Piri Weepu
10. Colin Slade
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Isaia Toeava

16. Andrew Hore
17. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodcock
18. Tom Donnelly/Jarad Hoeata
19. Victor Vito
20. Jimmy Cowan
21. Sonny Bill Williams
22. Richard Kahui

Should be enough to challene and in my opinion, beat the Springboks, certainly based off thier last few performances. Fact is, there is no conspiracy in giving some fringe players the chance to start games. In fact that's required going into a World Cup. This is vastly different from saying "the reason 21 members of our team can't play is because of injury". New Zealand is still leading the Tri Nations at the moment, so it is far from riding off the Tri Nations to prepare for a RWC.

I'm still far from happy with not having an openside flanker, especially with Kieran Read also not in the squad. It is an area of the game that Brussow could punish us in. With that in mind, I thill think the players that are on tour are enough to beat the Boks and heck, even if they don't, all it would do is put pressure on the team to beat Australia again to win the tornement.

OMG, I still can't believe people believe this conspiracy theory.

Stormers;
Andries Bekker - out of RWC injury picked up after S15
Schalk Burger - broken finger during S15 and still out
Bryan Habana - got injury to his shoulder in semi-final
Duane Vermeulen - serious knee injury during S15 and still out
Jaque Fourie - struggled all season with recurring problem was sent to rehab and is hopefully fit and will stay so
Jean de Villiers - tweeked his groin muscle and missed a few games during S15. not healed 100% and staff rightly decided to give it more treatment and time
Cheetahs:
Heinrich Brussow - injured early 2010, came back mid S15 only to get injured again. Has had no gametime. don't you think PdV would have played him and given him gametime if he could? Hell he only had 30 odd minutes of CC under his belt prior to this weekend. Injured permanently basically
Juan Smith - bowed out early in the S15 and is only now making his return. Still not available though. Another one that could have done well with some gametime
Sharks:
Willem Alberts - still injured and still unavailable
Jannie du Plessis - missed more thana month of S15 with injury to ligament and wasn't fit for away leg of 3N
Bulls:
Guthro Steenkamp - missed entire S15 2011 and EoyT 2010 through injury. Another in desperate need of gametime but will only be making a comeback off of the bench
Bakkies Botha - Injured on and off through S15 and ANOTHER that could do with some gametime.
Pierre Spies - missed 2 games in S15 with sore hip and was kept out for him to recover 100%

C'mon, guys, we know about these injuries. I just can't understand the conspiracy theories. Probably people who haven't watched S15 and know nothing about SA rugby and are gullable. Only explanation. Sure, the sheer amount of injuries are huge but this was the first season of the new format and we were carrying mass injuries to top players since last year. Simply look at the guys that were missing during our horrid 2010 season. Anyway, that's the guys I know of at least. I can't say about some of the other BUlls guys; Matfield and Hougaard; no sources. Also can't say about the guys from overseas.

So, yes you're right, there is a MASSIVE difference between SA saying, sorry, guys we have injuries and can't field a full strength side and NZ casually saying, FU all, we gonna rest our players and see if we care. Aus of course will be eating that **** for pudding. Sooner we foff out of SANZAR and stop babysitting the rest financially the better IMO. Bloody paranoid hypocrat whingers.

 

[lance2010]

Pfft. Of course this is a good idea. If we lose at a RWC, it will be because Dan Carter or Richie McCaw get injured, and there is no backup who has played top level rugby.

With a sqaud of:

1. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodocock
2. Kevin Mealamu (c)
3. Ben Franks/John Afoa
4. Samual Whitelock
5. Ali Williams
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Adam Thompson
8. Liam Messam
9. Piri Weepu
10. Colin Slade
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Isaia Toeava

16. Andrew Hore
17. Wyatt Crockett/Tony Woodcock
18. Tom Donnelly/Jarad Hoeata
19. Victor Vito
20. Jimmy Cowan
21. Sonny Bill Williams
22. Richard Kahui

Should be enough to challene and in my opinion, beat the Springboks, certainly based off thier last few performances. Fact is, there is no conspiracy in giving some fringe players the chance to start games. In fact that's required going into a World Cup. This is vastly different from saying "the reason 21 members of our team can't play is because of injury". New Zealand is still leading the Tri Nations at the moment, so it is far from riding off the Tri Nations to prepare for a RWC.

I'm still far from happy with not having an openside flanker, especially with Kieran Read also not in the squad. It is an area of the game that Brussow could punish us in. With that in mind, I thill think the players that are on tour are enough to beat the Boks and heck, even if they don't, all it would do is put pressure on the team to beat Australia again to win the tornement.

Dude isn't Conrad 1 of the 9 been rested?

 

[smartcooky]

Well Stormer, some of your own rugby journalists have let the cat out of the bag.

Mark Keohane, Joel Stransky, Mike Greenaway, Ryan Vrede, Warren Brosnihan and a couple of other South African Rugby journalists whose names I can't remember, have all been on NZ's RadioSport in the last two weeks telling NZ rugby fans that while there have been some injuries, they have been nowhere near as serious or as widespread as is being made out by the Springbok coaching and management staff.

They have also said that the "21" players have been at a rigorous training camp, and most of them don't look all that injured.

Ask yourself this question; if the RWC final was this Saturday, how many of these players would be willing to play through their minor injuries?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well Stormer, some of your own rugby journalists have let the cat out of the bag.

Mark Keohane, Joel Stransky, Mike Greenaway, Ryan Vrede, Warren Brosnihan and a couple of other South African Rugby journalists whose names I can't remember, have all been on NZ's RadioSport in the last two weeks telling NZ rugby fans that while there have been some injuries, they have been nowhere near as serious or as widespread as is being made out by the Springbok coaching and management staff.

They have also said that the "21" players have been at a rigorous training camp, and most of them don't look all that injured.

Ask yourself this question; if the RWC final was this Saturday, how many of these players would be willing to play through their minor injuries?

ah who cares... the All Blacks and the Boks are the only teams that thought it would be a good idea, both did it in 2007 as well and again this year... don't know why everyone is moaning about it... if it helps the cause in the World Cup then go for it... let those Aussie dickheads complain all they want... it's the only thing they're really good at...

 

[smartcooky]

ah who cares... the All Blacks and the Boks are the only teams that thought it would be a good idea, both did it in 2007 as well and again this year... don't know why everyone is moaning about it... if it helps the cause in the World Cup then go for it... let those Aussie dickheads complain all they want... it's the only thing they're really good at...

I have no problem with teams resting key players in the lead up to the big event in RWC year. But at least they should be honest about what they are doing.

 

[nickdnz]

Oh, fair enough then... I think it will be a very interesting game.



Many of these players were rested versus Fiji and South Africa. The reason many are being rested for the South Africa tour as well is as much to do with the travel factor as anything else. I think the top AB's side will have had plenty of time together before their key RWC matches.



As I mentioned in another thread, whoever out of Woodcock/Crockett doesn't start won't be in the 22, as they both can only cover loose-head prop. If Woodcock is fit I expect he will start. I know you want to try to get an entire Canes backline, but I don't think they will start either Weepu, Smith, or Nonu. Weepu is the backup 10 so I think will start on the bench, as I don't think they will want to play him for a full 80 mins (which he would have to if Slade got injured at any time during the game). Smith won't play as he is not going, and I think they will prefer to give SBW a start at 12 instead or Nonu. There is the option of a SBW/Nonu combo, but I think they will want to give Kahui a chance to impress. I think they will give Gear another chance to impress, but wouldn't be surprised to see him paired with Guildford, as they may be competing for one spot (though who they will take at this stage is still pretty open).

Quite possibly true, but I have a feelling that Woodcock is either going to get a game off the bench or will be subbed. Either way there is no way he can be expected to play a full 80 min game at this point, so I'd say it is possible that both Crockett and Woodcock are in the team/though my money is on Afoa/Ben Franks off the bench. As for the all Hurricanes backline I just picked the team of the players touring that I'd go with, not what is probable. I think it will look like: Woodcock, Mealamu, Ben Franks, Williams, Whitelock, Messam, Thompson, Vito, Ellis, Slade, Gear, Williams, Kahui, Dagg and Toeava. The reserves being Afoa, Hore, Donnelly, Kaino, Weepu, Nonu, Guildford/Jane.

 

[Shaggy]

Makes sense. I'm just wondering whether those who spewed venom at SA for cottoning injured players will do the same with NZ. Will O'Neill be up in arms again? Will SANZAR launch another invetigation? They won't because SANZAR is a joke. Like I said in the Aus vs SA in Sydney thread, if we were gonna rest players just for the sake of rest we'd have simply said so like we did in 2007.

As one of those who supposedly "spewed venom" by actually saying that it was wrong, I say, two wrongs do not make a right ... it may make sense to rest some players from purely a playing prospective, but in reality, it's a professional game, and the sponsors, holders of the TV rights, and the fans that bought tickets to the match, all expect full strength sides, regardless of whether it's RWC year or not.

Sponsors/TV rights = revenue = payment for the players ... unhappy sponsors/TV companies = less revenue = less money for the players

If the SANZAR partners had no intention of honouring their agreement to provide the best teams, they should have negotiated to provide weakened sides in RWC year with those providing the money, when they were negotiating the contracts, not simply renege on the deal.

I suspect John O'Neill won't care very much either, as Australia is likely to receive a full strength AB side for the match in Queensland, as it's the last hit out before the RWC, but I do hope pressure is exerted on SANZAR to investigate/sort this out for next time.

no i agree they should rest, but i think it would have been better to rest them the previous 3 international games.

Like Darwin says, it's more to do with the travel factor - it would have been interesting to see what would have occurred if the games in South Africa had occurred first ... whether, both New Zealand and South Africa would have still sent weakened sides for the overseas legs of the Tri nations (I think they would have)

In a way, the Springboks, by not sending a side that could win (and the AB's defeat of the Wallabies) has played right into Graham Henry's hands, as it has opened the door to send a weakened side, and possibly win the Tri nations

So, yes you're right, there is a MASSIVE difference between SA saying, sorry, guys we have injuries and can't field a full strength side and NZ casually saying, FU all, we gonna rest our players and see if we care. Aus of course will be eating that **** for pudding. Sooner we foff out of SANZAR and stop babysitting the rest financially the better IMO. Bloody paranoid hypocrat whingers.

Already made comments on the whole injured/resting thing above ... Australia don't have the player depth to send anything less than their best, but i'm sure they'd complain if they received a less than full strength All Black side as well.

... As for your leave SANZAR/financially better off etc, yes, South African consumers generate the most revenue, but the All Blacks and Wallabies (along with the Springboks) contribute the quality product ... see if the revenue is as good without them ... also see if South Africa's new partners (whoever they are) are as accommodating to South Africa, as their SANZAR partners are

 

[Thingimubob]

I'm gonna say exactly what I said when I heard the Boks were resting their top players, it demeans the Tri-Nations and just makes it seem a bit pointless. This is meant to be one of the top international tournaments in the world, and people pay good money on tickets to go see some of best players in the world go head to head, and also pay their TV subscriptions to do the same. I understand it's a world cup year and that's obviously the most important thing, by why bother with the Tri Nations if you're not even gonna bother naming full strength sides. Why not just scrap the Tri Nations every 4 years and play meaningless WC warm up games like the NH and Argentina are currently doing, because that's pretty much what it feels like SARU and NZRU have the turned this years Tri Nations into, just a series of meaningless warm ups. I'd be disgusted if the same happened in the 6 Nations (yeah I know that it's different with the timings, and the fact that most 6N sides dont have great strength in depth, but the principle is the same) and would be saying exactly the same if the WRU chose the same route.
Just does not sit well with me at all <_<

 

[Seaton]

Well Stormer, some of your own rugby journalists have let the cat out of the bag.

Mark Keohane, Joel Stransky, Mike Greenaway, Ryan Vrede, Warren Brosnihan and a couple of other South African Rugby journalists whose names I can't remember, have all been on NZ's RadioSport in the last two weeks telling NZ rugby fans that while there have been some injuries, they have been nowhere near as serious or as widespread as is being made out by the Springbok coaching and management staff.

They have also said that the "21" players have been at a rigorous training camp, and most of them don't look all that injured.

Ask yourself this question; if the RWC final was this Saturday, how many of these players would be willing to play through their minor injuries?

A wee question, when did you start using journalists who tend to make articles for keo.co.za in your debates?
While it could easily have been another NZ poster, I thought it was you that condenmed keo, correctly saying it is a site of racist posters and the like, and many of it's articles are designed to stir up controversy.

As for whether or not those players stormer2010 listed would compete in a world cup final, well, given the chance I would safely say any of those players would willingly play if they had a triple leg break, but apart from that I would safely say that none of those players would have been deemed fit as it were.

Scotland rested players for the final few rounds of the Magners League, are the SRU a bunch if conniving, disrespectful and deceiving fools as well? And as for the 'rigorous training' supposedly being done, well, you're free to believe whom ever you wish, but personally I believe the word of medical professionals, whom stand to lose their careers if found guilty of lying, and have years if not decades in their professions, over the word of a journalists.