All Blacks vs Springboks, July 17th 2010, Second Tri Nations Test

Discussion in 'Tri Nations 2009-2011' started by Dizzy, Jul 12, 2010.

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Were the Boks Ripped Off?

  1. Yes

    18.4%
  2. No

    81.6%
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  1. Dizzy

    Dizzy Senior Member

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    Here it is again folks, After a world class All Blacks performance last Saturday, The Springboks will be a wounded beast, and we all know there is nothing more dangerous than a wounded animal.
    With Botha banned, Rokocoko, Kahui and Cowan out with injury, could their replacements bring anything more to the table.

    The second clash between Rugby's top two nations will prove to be the decider between the worlds best test nation.

    My prediction, 33-31 to the All Blacks.
     
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  3. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Long range weather forecast is for a wet & windy day in the Capital. If that is correct, then handling will become more difficult, and with the way the wind swirls around at the Cake Tin, long distance goal kicking and drop kicking becomes much more difficult. A low score would be on the cards.

    I won't pick a score just yet, except to say that the Springboks will improve, but so will the All Blacks.

    All Blacks to still win by 10.
     
  4. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    I don't think it has been confirmed yet whether Kahui (shoulder injury), Rococoko (hamstring injury), and Cowan (abdominal strain) will be ruled out for next week. I imagine they will all be assessed today - Kahui's injury is thought to be serious though, and may rule him out for the whole tri-nations. If Cowan and Rococoko are fit I'd think they would stick with the same starting 15, but if Cowan is ruled out Mathewson would likely come into the squad (and play off the bench with Weepu starting).

    If Kahui is ruled out for a while they will have to bring in a new players from outside the squad - Guildford, Gear and Ben Smith would be the obvious candidates. Personally I'd pick Guildford, and I'd imagine the selectors would probably go that way too.
     
  5. ranger

    ranger Senior Member

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    Screw Guildford! I'd rather Maitland if they stick to their guns over the no Hosea Gear policy.

    Bring in:
    Gear for Joe
    McAllister for Kahui
    Matthewson for Cowan

    Lineup for the test:

    15)Muliaina
    14)Jane
    13)Smith
    12)Nonu
    11)Gear/Dagg
    10)Carter
    9)Weepu
    8)Read
    7)McCaw
    6)Kaino
    5)Donnelly
    4)Thorn
    3)O.Franks
    2)Mealamu
    1)Woodcock

    16)B.Franks
    17)Flynn by default, but i'm not sold on him at all
    18)Whitelock
    19)Messam
    20)Matthewson
    21)Cruden
    22)Ranger
     
  6. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    I've just heard it confirmed that Guildford and Mathewson are training with the AB's this week to cover injuries - I'm sure the Hosea Gear supporters will not be happy! Not sure what you have against Guildford - he was very impressive in the one start he had for the AB's this year.
     
  7. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike BANNED!!!

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    Guildford is one dimensional, and for a one dimensional player he doesn't seem to do it very well, that is why people don't like him that much. He is like a bad version of Bryan Habana.

    Sean Maitland brings a lot to the game being solid under the high ball and being relatively big for a winger at 98kg.

    Gear is a no brainer atleast for wing cover, he doesn't even have to start, just on the bench! I have no time for Ranger, he is a good player, but incredibly inconsistant and his handling, lack of kicking and all round selfishness is beginning to annoy me, especially bombing that try against Wales. It is a team game and Ranger is not wanted for me.

    My 22 would be,

    15) Malili
    14) Jane
    13) Smith
    12) Nonu
    11) Gear
    10) Carter
    9) Weepu
    8) Read
    7) Mccaw
    6) Kaino
    5) Donnelly
    4) Thorn
    3) O. Franks
    2) Mealamu
    1) Woodcock

    16) Flynn
    17) Afoa
    18) Whitelock
    19) Vito
    20) Foutali'
    21) Mcalister
    22) Dagg
     
  8. Conal

    Conal Senior Member

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    why oh why is gear not a regular yes his kicking and all may not be as good as zac guilford but his attacking gameis too good to miss
    and the all blacks know thier rugby!!!! he should be in the 22 at least

    i reckon springboks will try to come out fighting but with botha gone iexpect russow in and he isnt as physical as botha (in my eyes)
    so i reckon the ab pack will come out on top and without their pack the springboks are vuntable i think all blacks to win by 10
     
  9. ranger

    ranger Senior Member

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    I just don't see what skills he has that the likes of Maitland and Gear dont have. Graham Henry said publicly that the reason he didn't select Gear was that although he was a great finisher, those opportunities to finish dont come up too often at test level. Fair enough.

    But Guildford doesn't spark anything. He catches the ball and runs fast, thats his only trick. He can't kick, he doesn't have a step to speak of, he isn't known as a great passer, he isn't known for busting through tackles or even breaking too many of them. If Henry doesn't have any room for pure finishers, why is Guildford assured of selection? Gear creates more than he does. Added to that, hes only what 20, 21? why has he been given this free pass to a black jersey when he isn't even really a standout player (the kind of young 20 year old like Cullen or Carlos Spencer that you see as obviously a class above everyone else on the field at a young age). He should have to work towards it like everyone else. Even Dagg, who has been nothing short of amazing since playing ANZC as a schoolboy has been around longer than Guildford and has only just got the call up.

    Guildford made a couple of good tackles against Wales, but i just don't think he has the moves on attack to warrant his constant selection. He reminds me of Caleb Ralph.
     
  10. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    Iron Mike: I don't understand how you think Guildford has a 'one dimensional game' - he has a near complete game (but he does need to work on beating people 1-on-1), Gear is the one with a one-dimensional game!

    Its pretty obvious why Gear is not selected - his work rate around the field is very poor, both in attack and defense. The AB game plan at the moment is based on a counter attacking game -as such when the opposition kicks the ball they need to get as many players back behind the ball as quickly as possible - particularly the outside backs. If you watch the game carefully you will see wingers such as Guildford, Jane, and Rococoko sprinting back to get back in support - in contrast Gear tends to slowly jog his way back. Similarly he lacks any urgency on defense - when the opposition makes a break he slowly makes his way back, rather than sprinting to help the rest of the team. He similarity lacks any urgency chasing kicks and putting pressure on the opposition.

    In addition his defensive positioning is generally poor, while he is also very poor under the high ball - as putting up bombs seems to be one of South Africa's only attacking ploys at the moment it would be rather silly to put someone who can't catch bombs in the team! I'm not in anyway suggesting he is a bad player - all his faults are fixable, however the fact he's played 5-6 seasons of professional rugby and still has these glaring faults is a bit worrying. If he could greatly increase his work-rate and work on his high ball skills he would be a pretty phenomenal player, as he is undoubtedly an exceptional attacking player.

    I can see why people would want to see Gear in the AB's, however in my opinion being exceptional at one aspect of the game does not necessarily outweigh being poor in all other aspects of the game! I'm not necessarily expecting anyone here to agree with me though....

    Guildford brings the same skill set as Doug Howlett brought (though he's not at Howletts level yet). He still needs to work on beating players 1-on-1, but he is improving in that area (for example watch the Crusaders game versus the Brumbies where he broke a pile of tackles). He is does have a good side-step when he actually decides to bring it out, and has the pace to beat players on the outside.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  11. Dizzy

    Dizzy Senior Member

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    I have to agree with you on Guildford, even though he is a fellow Hawkes Bay-men. I totally disagree with him even being considered to be an All Black. Gear is the top form winger of New Zealand he should atleast be in the 30 man squad if not the starting 15. But on that note here is my starting lineup

    Lineup for the test:

    15)Muliaina
    14)Jane
    13)Smith
    12)Nonu
    11)Ranger[He is perfect for this position, he can bust tackles like nothing, he has pace and one of a wingers traits isn't being generous with the ball, you can be as greedy as you like]
    10)Carter
    9)Weepu
    8)Read
    7)McCaw
    6)Kaino
    5)Donnelly
    4)Thorn
    3)O.Franks
    2)Mealamu
    1)Woodcock

    16)B.Franks
    17)Flynn
    18)Whitelock
    19)Messam
    20)Matthewson
    21)McAlister
    22)Dagg
     
  12. ranger

    ranger Senior Member

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    I totally disagree on Gear, have you actually watched the games hes played closely? This whole business about him not being any good under the high ball is a myth! The original problem he had under the high ball wasn't that he couldn't catch it it was that his technique was off. He was very hesitant to get up in the air to catch kicks, being 6'3 he is used to being taller than his opposite and tended to stay grounded when fielding kicks, he would catch them alright though. At international level you need to get some air under you to compete and he has changed his game as the first couple of super 14 games showed he was fielding bombs with ease. I have no idea where all of this "he can't catch" business came from because its completely untrue. The guy that kept spilling high balls was Roks and he made the team.

    The flaws you have picked up on in Gears lack of urgency may well be true, but you have to put it in perspective. He plays his game like that and manages to score more tries than anyone else in the country, maybe instead of lazily jogging he is putting himself in prime position for the next play? who knows, the facts show that he scores a metric shitload more than anyone else, maybe hes got it right and everyone else has it wrong? How about giving him a go in the All Blacks to see how his game would work instead of saying "nah, he probably wouldnt be any good in there" and throwing some average 20 year old in the national team?
    As for slowly jogging back in defense, i don't think i've ever seen him do that before? i know that he very often doesn't sprint at top pace when hes covering in defense, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. When wingers sprint back at top pace, thats when they are easily stepped. Look at Corey Janes try against Wales, the winger tore across the field to cover and Jane merrily skipped inside him. Gear has made countless tryscoring sideline tackles on his wing over the last 7 years at the Canes and 9 in Wellington. His defense might not be worldclass but it isnt any worse than Joes and its certainly not a "weakness"

    I'm sorry but these "flaws" don't seem to me to be enough to lift a fairly unimpressive kid over an established star. To compare Guildford to Howlett doesn't make any sense, Howlett was an actual 100metre sprinter, one of the fastest kids in the entire country outside of rugby. Guildford doesn't have that kind of pace, he is fast, but he isn't that fast, he isn't even quicker than Gear i wouldnt think. Guildford doesn't have the acceleration of Howlett or the game sense and playmaking ability that Howlett had in his ability to play fullback. Guildfords 1 on 1 game is fairly non-existant, if he catches the ball stationary with no momentum, you can put money on the fact that he wont achieve anything or break any tackles.

    I'm not saying that hes a bad player, but to make the All Blacks at such a young age, you have to be a Cullen, Dagg or Spencer-like player. If you make the All Blacks at a young age by putting out an established superstar like Gear, you better be a freaking prodigy with a complete allround game and a ton of x-factor. Guildford isnt.
     
  13. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    Yes I have. So have Henry and co., and they have given the same reason as me for his exclusion from the AB's.

    I have to disagree - during the super 14 he looked very shaky under the high-ball. Indeed he himself has even recently stated that it is an area he needs to improve! (http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=176539). In contrast Rococoko has greatly improved his work under the high-ball since last year.

    I think you'll find Guildford has actually scored many tries than Gear over the last year or so! Guildford scored 6 in this years super 14 (Gear scored 4), 13 in last years Air New Zealand cup (Gear was close second with 11), and 5 in last years super 14 (Gear scored 3). So it seems that Guildford scores more tries than Gear, despite having a much higher work-rate than Gear!

    I think you really underestimate Guildford's pace - he is very fast, I'd be very surprised if Gear is as fast as him. He is also more than capable of playing fullback, as he did on numerous occasions in the under 20 team. Looking at some stats from the super 14 (from foxsports.com.au) suggest that Guildford does break more than the odd tackle. According to there stats he broke 36 tackles (from 95 runs) - sure its not as impressive as Gears stats (broke 25 tackles from 57 runs), but he certainly is capable of breaking tackles.

    On Maitland - I rate him quite highly. I think he is not far behind the likes of Guildford and Gear in terms of AB's selection.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  14. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Hosea Gear may struggle to get in unless he's a last resort, because AIUI, the three wise men consider him to to be a bit of a flat track bully.

    I don't agree with them, but I'm just putting out there what I have heard.
     
  15. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike BANNED!!!

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    Sorry, the way you speak of Hosea Gear reminds me a lot of Morne Steyn.
     
  16. TRF_nickdnz

    TRF_nickdnz Super Moderator

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    Darmin, Hosea scored 11 tries to Guildford's 13, however Hosea Gear was injured 4 more games...In face injury has been Hosea Gear's biggest challenge, as in this years S14 he was injured through much of it. Anyway, Guildford and Mathewson have been brought in for cover.

    http://nz.sports.yahoo.com/rugby/news/article/-/7568408/guildford-mathewson-join-blacks
    I also think Hosea Gear has been criticised for having a poor catching game, simply because he does not play a kicking game. In this years S14, he did not drop many up-and-unders, despite the thousands people claim. It's just a big guy that runs instead of kicks is criticized as not being a capable catcher, which I don't think it is the case. We have Mils and Jane, two of the most secure players in the world under the high ball, we don't need a safe selection like Guildford. Gear will create attacking options and his finishing is great.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  17. Jer1cho

    Jer1cho Senior Member

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    This is the Starting XV we need:

    1. Gurthro Steenkamp
    2. John Smit (He needs to pull up his socks NOW)
    3. BJ Botha
    4. Danie Rossouw
    5. Victor Matfield
    6. Schalk Burger
    7. Francois Louw
    8. Pierre Spies

    9. Francois Hougaard

    10. Morne Steyn
    11. Bryan Habana
    12. Juan de jongh
    13. Jaque Fourie
    14. Gerhard van den heever
    15. Francois Steyn

    The Boks need to get their heads straight, otherwise we will be in for another 2006. Although, that was a hell year for us, and we managed to win the WC in 2007. We needed this wake up call a lot more than we think. If we manage to focus, and pick ourselves up, we might be in with a shot.
     
  18. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    True, however Guildford missed the final game of the regular season and HB's semi-final (as he was called up to the AB's), while Gear played in both the semi and final. Overall Guildford scored 13 tries (in 12 matches), while Gear had 11 tries (in 11 matches) - Guildford still scored more tries per game than Gear.

    The fact Gear said this when asked what he needs to work on: "...., but I know pretty much what I need to work on ... my guess is the high ball and my overall workrate." (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/local-sport/3859947/Even-coach-Henry-feels-for-Hosea-Gear) indicates he thinks he needs to work on his ability under the high ball. You are right that he didn't drop that many high balls during the super 14, however he was not targeted at all (as he would be by South Africa)
     
  19. Jake Heke

    Jake Heke Senior Member

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    **** who cares, I think Hosea should get a shot in the black jersey. But i aint complaining if he does or doesn't. I like Guildford and hope he does well.
     
  20. Amobokoboko

    Amobokoboko Waikato Junglist

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    Some new players added to the squad but still no Gear. Pity, he could be the guy that trashes SA once more.
     
  21. Darwin

    Darwin AKA Dingo_Darwin

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    Off the topic of Guildford/Gear for a moment - Its great to see Alby Mathewson called up for the AB's, as he was in my opinion the form NZ halfback in the Super 14. I feel his strong running game around the base of the ruck could really add something to the AB's attack.
     
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