Are Munster "worthy" champions?

[sean43]

Without coming right out to incur the wrath of all Munster supporters, I just want to get other fans view of Munster, and their style of play.

Dont get me wrong, they have won 2 HC, been in the final more than enough times and have an absolutely fantastic home record. However, as a Cardiff fan and neutral - they have become one of my pet hates as a side, symbolising everything negative in the game of rugby.

I find it always a test if neutrals love to see you win, maybe that reflects the style you play. Munster maybe champions, but for me, they arent popular champions. If they are playing, you know outright what sort of game to expect, a very conservative, steely but ultimately negative brand of rugby. Before all of the Munster fans rattle off the world class backs they have, only a fool would doubt Munsters success is based on a very set gameplan.

You maybe champions, but you are not worthy champions.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sean43 @ Apr 6 2009, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Without coming right out to incur the wrath of all Munster supporters, I just want to get other fans view of Munster, and their style of play.

Dont get me wrong, they have won 2 HC, been in the final more than enough times and have an absolutely fantastic home record. However, as a Cardiff fan and neutral - they have become one of my pet hates as a side, symbolising everything negative in the game of rugby.

I find it always a test if neutrals love to see you win, maybe that reflects the style you play. Munster maybe champions, but for me, they arent popular champions. If they are playing, you know outright what sort of game to expect, a very conservative, steely but ultimately negative brand of rugby. Before all of the Munster fans rattle off the world class backs they have, only a fool would doubt Munsters success is based on a very set gameplan.

You maybe champions, but you are not worthy champions.[/b]

1) They're not champions yet

2) The beauty of rugby union is the diversity of styles, which is largely the reason so many people were furious about the ELVs. I was one of Ireland's biggest critics during the 6N for not looking like a Grand Slam team, but they are as worthy champions as any other Grand Slam winning side, because they worked out a way of winning which is an act of beauty in itself. Professional Rugby is about winning, and Munster are the most effective side at doing it. It was never a popularity contest.

 

[sean43]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Apr 7 2009, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sean43 @ Apr 6 2009, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Without coming right out to incur the wrath of all Munster supporters, I just want to get other fans view of Munster, and their style of play.

Dont get me wrong, they have won 2 HC, been in the final more than enough times and have an absolutely fantastic home record. However, as a Cardiff fan and neutral - they have become one of my pet hates as a side, symbolising everything negative in the game of rugby.

I find it always a test if neutrals love to see you win, maybe that reflects the style you play. Munster maybe champions, but for me, they arent popular champions. If they are playing, you know outright what sort of game to expect, a very conservative, steely but ultimately negative brand of rugby. Before all of the Munster fans rattle off the world class backs they have, only a fool would doubt Munsters success is based on a very set gameplan.

You maybe champions, but you are not worthy champions.[/b]

1) They're not champions yet

2) The beauty of rugby union is the diversity of styles, which is largely the reason so many people were furious about the ELVs. I was one of Ireland's biggest critics during the 6N for not looking like a Grand Slam team, but they are as worthy champions as any other Grand Slam winning side, because they worked out a way of winning which is an act of beauty in itself. Professional Rugby is about winning, and Munster are the most effective side at doing it. It was never a popularity contest.
[/b][/quote]

Well they are currently champions of Europe so thats why I called them champions. I can see your point of they have won it, so they must be worthy, but if that were the case winning 3-0 every game or playing open high scoring rugby wouldnt matter because its winning all the same. I think the Wales 2005 Grand Slam was won better than in 2008 with the type of rugby that was played, but the end results were both the same.

They play a very very effective game which has brought them fantastic success, but if you wish to see a team play the game to the point of boredom then I suggest you watch Munster. Rugby is about winning, but its also a game that prides itself on the way it is played, the so called spirit of rugby. This doesnt mean to run every play or chuck it around all the time, but you see this brand of rugby far less from Munster than any other side.

 

[durbutter]

you'll have this **** when you're one of the most successful and well supported team in europe.

What makes worthy champions? Commitment? or entertainmet?

I'm flabbergased to be honest. Munster have been banging on the door to the top teir in europen rugby for 10 years, and now that they're there, why would you begrudge it?

If Cardiif won the HEC playing the rugby Munster have played you would reguard them as unworthy?

munster play to there strengths? Why wouldn't they?

SO ANGRY!!!!aaaarrgghh!!!!!!!

 

[An Tarbh]

and he catches himself a big one there :lol:

 

[durbutter]

Hook, line and sinker.

Damn.

 

[sean43]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noidsay @ Apr 7 2009, 04:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

you'll have this **** when you're one of the most successful and well supported team in europe.

What makes worthy champions? Commitment? or entertainmet?

I'm flabbergased to be honest. Munster have been banging on the door to the top teir in europen rugby for 10 years, and now that they're there, why would you begrudge it?

If Cardiif won the HEC playing the rugby Munster have played you would reguard them as unworthy?

munster play to there strengths? Why wouldn't they?

SO ANGRY!!!!aaaarrgghh!!!!!!![/b]

I dont get this committment line myself, surely anyone playing top flight European Rugby is committed to the cause? As a Munster fan winning 2 HC is entertaining enough, as a neutral watching you - not so. Your not there to please neutrals, just your fans. All I am saying is that while playing to your strengths, your playing negative rugby.

If Cardiff won the way Munster played? Would I care? 99% probably not, but id always prefer the team I support to play some expansive rugby rather than confine it to a quite limited gameplan. I remember Cardiff playing Munster in the magners last year, when we won 25-22. Munster played pick and go for 10 mins straight trying to see the game out - thankfully they got what they deserved and lost in the last minute.

Munster have got the forwards game down to a tee, including slowing the ball down at the breakdown, that expansive rugby is hardly ever seen.

 

[MunsterMan]

So have you watched any Munster Heineken Cup games this season Sean? Apart from the error fest on the opening day, how many of these games were you bored watching?

 

[feicarsinn]

well i dont really like munster but i dont get this whole negative thing anymore. sure back in '06 they played a forward based game but if you look at the team they can played pretty positive rugby. watching the leinster game the other night they actually attacked well with a quick backrow and a fairly threatening backline with the likes of howlett earls mafi warick etc. they played defensivly in the final last year but it is a final after all it happens

 

[monkeypigeon]

This seems to me a question from someone who hasn't watched Munster play since the 06 campaign and then only pays attention to the last 10 minutes of Munster matches where they do something that most teams wish they could do.

But if you simply look at the facts this year, you can't call them a negative team.

In the Magners League they have the most points scored at 303, currently the only team over that mark. And it's not all penalty kicking. Evidence? They're the only team with 4 'try bunus-point' victories.

And before you suggest they're forwards scoring tries:

2008/09 MAGNERS LEAGUE - AFTER ROUND 14:

TOP TRY SCORERS -

8 - Thom Evans (Glasgow Warriors)

7 - Keith Earls (Munster), Richard Fussell (Newport Gwent Dragons)

6 - Doug Howlett (Munster)

5 - Fionn Carr (Connacht), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Niall Ronan (ok, well he's a forward but he scores like a back) (Munster)

4 - Darren Cave (Ulster), Simon Danielli (Ulster), Deacon Manu (Scarlets), Martin Roberts (Scarlets), Jason Tovey (Newport Gwent Dragons)


As for the Heineken Cup. In the Group of death they emerged with 18 tries. I believe only Cardiff and Leicester topped that with 23 tries each. And considering those two teams had Italians sides in their group opposed to Clermont, Sale and Mountabon I think it's ridiculous to suggest any notion of a 'negative team'.

Suggest what you like about the 2006 campaign, which actually did show the emergence of much back play from Munster for the first time thanks to Ian Dowling and Barry Murphy (scoring try of a bonus point victory during that campaign in my avator [thanks JDV]), but currently, Munster have one of the most varied gameplans in Eurpean Rugby, argueably the most varied and have no fear of back play as would be obvious to anyone watching them in the last 2-3 years.

So yes, Munster are worthy champions. Whether it be their Backplay, Forwardplay, Mentality or versatilty you judge them by, they stand up in all regards.

 

[sean43]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Apr 7 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

This seems to me a question from someone who hasn't watched Munster play since the 06 campaign and then only pays attention to the last 10 minutes of Munster matches where they do something that most teams wish they could do.

But if you simply look at the facts this year, you can't call them a negative team.

In the Magners League they have the most points scored at 303, currently the only team over that mark. And it's not all penalty kicking. Evidence? They're the only team with 4 'try bunus-point' victories.

And before you suggest they're forwards scoring tries:

2008/09 MAGNERS LEAGUE - AFTER ROUND 14:

TOP TRY SCORERS -

8 - Thom Evans (Glasgow Warriors)

7 - Keith Earls (Munster), Richard Fussell (Newport Gwent Dragons)

6 - Doug Howlett (Munster)

5 - Fionn Carr (Connacht), Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster), Niall Ronan (ok, well he's a forward but he scores like a back) (Munster)

4 - Darren Cave (Ulster), Simon Danielli (Ulster), Deacon Manu (Scarlets), Martin Roberts (Scarlets), Jason Tovey (Newport Gwent Dragons)


As for the Heineken Cup. In the Group of death they emerged with 18 tries. I believe only Cardiff and Leicester topped that with 23 tries each. And considering those two teams had Italians sides in their group opposed to Clermont, Sale and Mountabon I think it's ridiculous to suggest any notion of a 'negative team'.

Suggest what you like about the 2006 campaign, which actually did show the emergence of much back play from Munster for the first time thanks to Ian Dowling and Barry Murphy (scoring try of a bonus point victory during that campaign in my avator [thanks JDV]), but currently, Munster have one of the most varied gameplans in Eurpean Rugby, argueably the most varied and have no fear of back play as would be obvious to anyone watching them in the last 2-3 years.

So yes, Munster are worthy champions. Whether it be their Backplay, Forwardplay, Mentality or versatilty you judge them by, they stand up in all regards.[/b]

You can counter the Magners league top try scores with the current Heineken cup leaders im afraid. As for not watching Munster really play since 06', I have watched all of the Heinken Cup games they have been live this year, aswel as last year. I also watched Ireland play a very similar way this year, and the gameplan rarely touches on expansive.

Forward play is the best in Europe by quite a way, backplay, im really not sure about that. "It may be boring but who cares?" springs to mind from last years final. I went to that game, and despite the occassion, I can only remember Tolouse' fantastic try - thats about it.

You can use all the facts and stats you want, im not doubting the success of Munster - I dont like the way they do it. If everyone played the way Munster did would it be an entertaining sport? I dont think so.

 

[dundeesmiffy]

I like the Munster play, as long as tries are getting scored I'm happy though.

 

[shtove]

We're not worthy.

Oooo, Cardiff. They're great, they are.

Guess Munster will have to "larn ya" in the knockouts.

Munster aren't yet a total war team, but they're getting there.

What is negative rugby? Anything that doesn't have Ickle Shane scoring three and conceding two?

 

[sean43]

"It may be boring but who cares?" from last years final also springs to mind. The high point victories usually come from gridning a team down by any means neccessary (including killing the ball at most opportunities, or slowing the ball down as some like to call it) then chucking it around when they have nothing left. Its not pretty, but it works - but Munster are not renown for their brilliant rugby, and probably never will.

 

[sean43]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Apr 7 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

We're not worthy.

Oooo, Cardiff. They're great, they are.

Guess Munster will have to "larn ya" in the knockouts.

Munster aren't yet a total war team, but they're getting there.

What is negative rugby? Anything that doesn't have Ickle Shane scoring three and conceding two?[/b]

Negative rugby?

- Restricting the opposition by any means neccessary
- Constant forward play, scant regard for expansive play
- Keeping the ball for 10 mins + within a 5m area.
- Most Munster games

 

[shazbooger]

I totally agree. Munster suck balls. If it wasnt for the talent of the Leinster lads out wide, Ireland would never have won the Grand Slam.

I mean if you look at it, apart from well ....... hmmmm ........ well all the World Class players they have, the fact that they never never capitulate in the manner of pretty much all other NH teams whats good about them! NOTHING I SAY NOTHING!

Worthy Champions? No way!

 

[durbutter]

No, i'm refusing to read this any longer. You are saying I don't like the way Munster play, and anyone who does not support Munster should agree with me.

Well i hate tuna and everyone else here should also hate tuna , it smells.

Arse biscuits.

 

[sean43]

No because I would have just stated that in one sentence like you said. When you have your second row say its boring, there must be some truth to the negative style of play argument no?

 

[monkeypigeon]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sean43 @ Apr 6 2009, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Apr 7 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We're not worthy.

Oooo, Cardiff. They're great, they are.

Guess Munster will have to "larn ya" in the knockouts.

Munster aren't yet a total war team, but they're getting there.

What is negative rugby? Anything that doesn't have Ickle Shane scoring three and conceding two?[/b]

Negative rugby?

- Restricting the opposition by any means neccessary (Isn't that a significant part of the sport?)
- Constant forward play, scant regard for expansive play
- Keeping the ball for 10 mins + within a 5m area. (That's been near impossible since the rucking and tackle protocol set out by IRB before this season began)
- Most Munster games
[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sean43 @ Apr 6 2009, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

"It may be boring but who cares?" from last years final also springs to mind. The high point victories usually come from gridning a team down by any means neccessary (including killing the ball at most opportunities, or slowing the ball down as some like to call it) then chucking it around when they have nothing left. Its not pretty, but it works - but Munster are not renown for their brilliant rugby, and probably never will.[/b]

Given the quality of opposition Munster faced in the pool stage of the Heniken Cup, I'd like to see how any team could score an average of three tries a match without grinding teams down.

In all honesty, I'd rather see 3 tries against a well drilled Clermont defence than 12 against an enthusiastic but incompotant Calvisano or Treviso one.


Oh and slightly off the point, you mentioned the Heineken Cup top try scorer table earlier on, could you be so nice as to link me to that as I've been unable to locate one. Thanks.

 

[sean43]

An understrength Montauban team twice, a Sale team that was very poor and a struggle against Clermont. So you disagree with your own Heineken winner that the brand of rugby is boring? Your focus is so much on stopping the opposition playing any rugby, it is very frustrating to watch.

As for this years top try scorer table

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/36_8603.php#rd11404

4
Tommy Bowe - 4

Leigh Halfpenny - 4

Johne Murphy - 4

Brian O'Driscoll - 4
4
Gareth Thomas - 4

Tom Williams - 4

Benoit August - 3

Guillaume Bousses - 3

Gerrie Britz - 3

Jordan Crane - 3

Also have a look at previous years top try scorers, not many Munstermen.