Are the 2013 All-Blacks the best team of all time. Question mark.

Big Ewis · Nov 25, 2013

Yeh I know it sounds cheesy and so very mainstream, almost silly, but yet the question absolutely deserves to be posed: are they ?

I'd like to start off by saying we should look at the quality of play in itself (and results of course). But this is important: the intrinsic quality of play regardless of context. Because I know people will start questioning the 2013 All-Blacks' right to the "throne" because they hadn't played during a year that included a Rugby World Cup for instance. Fair enough, but it's just that what I meant by context comes in play here. Let's pick the 2003 England squad. They beat everyone in the 6N and the RWC that year, and a good share of test matches. So that's a Grand Slam and a RWC trophy.
But was their quality of play as great as today's All-Blacks ? If you look at one team play for 80 minutes, see what they can do, and then watch the other for 80, see what they can do - all of a sudden, whatever trophy, hardware or accolades matter a lot less, because what is in question is the very ability of a side to play the sport.

I didn't mean to establish a bellicose atmosphere already here mentioning 2003 England, but it was just a good example to utilize. No intention to draw direct confrontation.

I'd suppose no one, especially not on this forum as we're mostly new generation fans, will be mentioning teams before the mid-90's/pro era. I'm just going to assume that. For example, the All-Blacks were unbeaten in 1989 also, but they only played 7 matches that year and the competitiveness at the time wasn't anything like today. It's 14 wins this year in comparison through the scope of a wide-open world Rugby conjecture.
So that leaves us with barely two decades of world Rugby to pick from.

I'm not going to start a lyrical ode to their greatness, because it's not the thread for it. So besides the incredible aesthetics they allow for Rugby to shine at its brightest and most polished form, more tangibly this year, they've:
- scored 51 tries.
- scored an average of 32 points per game.
- won by an average margin of 15 points.
- played 13 of 14 games against (strong) Tier 1 opposition.
- won 33 of their last 35 (1 loss, 1 draw).

Hopefully others can bring more stats and remarks to this already ridiculous prize list.

Also, resilience:
They saw England come right back at home with a roaring crowd to take the lead, it was on. Though dark memories could've haunted them the rest of the way, they insured victory.
Against Ireland, let's not forget they were down 19-0, and against a bunch of blood-lust driven, savage Celts to handle, and a crowd which glowing presence could only discourage them more.

I think a technical, statistical analysis of their performances would be futile here, unless to compare to other past sides. Much of their stats are covered here:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...st-the-way-they-play-Is-it-right-for-RWC-2015

So let's read some opinions, hopefully founded and unbiased.
What an amazing side.

Aristodemus · Nov 25, 2013

To me it is like asking who is better from Jesse Owens and Usain Bolt, silly question without an answer.

That said, England by miles

Isurus · Nov 25, 2013

Impossible to say definitively but I have some thoughts on the matter.

What the All Black class of '13 has done by winning 14/14 tests this year against top ranked opposition (13/14 against tier 1 opposition with only Wales not played) home and away is an amazing accomplishment. As someone else said in another thread, that is a much more difficult thing to do than to win a Word Cup. Add to that the fact (can I call it a fact?) that every time we play, our opponents invariably raise their game well above their usual level of performance, making what they have done this year an achievement that is difficult to rank among other noteworthy achievements. Maybe it is the greatest accomplishment ever for an international side. I think it rates right up there.

Having said that, I just can't look at this side and think of it as the best ever.

In the backs we have had a mostly out of form fullback all season. We finished the season in these last 4 tests with a centre playing out of position as a temporary replacement who has yet to make the position his own. Daniel Carter, our best first-five, has only started 6 of the 14 matches and been taken off in the first half due to injury in 2 of those. His replacements Cruden/Barret/Taylor have been exceptional so that adds to the overall quality of the side but when your best 10 hardly plays it does detract somewhat. Otherwise the backs have been pretty outstanding with special mention going to Ben Smith before his switch to centre.

In the forwards we have had trouble with the new scrum laws all season. We have gotten by but it has hardly been an area of dominance for the All Blacks. The front row in general has been adequate without setting the world on fire. At hooker we have two veterans who are nearing the end of their careers who have done a job and a relatively new member of the squad in Coles who is just developing into the player he will become. We also have a good stock of high quality props. At lock we have been outstanding. Whitelock/Retallick/Romano have been world class. Lineouts in particular have been of the highest quality all year, with restarts being another area of strength (minus the England clash). In the backrow we have probably the world's best player in Read who has been nothing short of outstanding all season. The fact that this side is even being considered as one of the greatest of all time is in no small part due to Read's efforts. Messam has filled the 6 shirt for most of the year and has been excellent but I don't think he ranks among the greatest 6's produced by NZ over the decades. Richie McCaw has started only 8 of the 14 tests this year and his form has not always been up to his ridiculously high standards but his leadership cannot be underestimated. These last 3 wins in particular against fierce opposition shows the character and mental strength of this group and this leader. Mention must also go to Sam Cane who wore the 7 shirt to high esteem in the Captain's absence.

Overall I look at this team as being very talented but their acomplishments exceed their talent and that, I think, is due to the management and leadership of the squad on and off the field. I think this 2013 side is a team that should be studied and copied, not in terms of the way they play, but from a management and leadership perspective. Hansen and co have taken the art/science of sports management to new heights and that more than anything else is what has set this team apart from the rest.

Isurus · Nov 25, 2013

I wanted to mention some of the other great All Black sides that I have watched over the last 30 years or so. Prior to that I am not in a position to make any judgement.

1987-1990 - World Cup winners in '87, unbeaten from World Cup through until August 1990. Dominated world rugby completely. Players included Fitzpatrick, McDowell, Loe, Z.Brooke, Shelford, G.Whetton, A.Whetton, Kirk, Bachop, Fox, Kirwan, Stanley, Wright, Gallagher. Probably the greatest team of the pre-professional era.

1996-1997 - 20 wins, 1 loss (to South Africa in Jo'burg), 1 draw (England at Twickenham). A sublime backline including Marshall, Mehrtens/Spencer, Little, Bunce, Lomu, Wilson/Umaga, Cullen. Forwards Fitzpatrick, Dowd, Brown, I.Jones, R.Brooke, Z.Brooke, M.Jones/Kronfeld, Randell. Possibly the most devastating attacking side ever put together.

2005-2006 - 23 wins, 2 losses (both in South Africa). Includes big series win over Lions, two TriNations series wins, and two end of year clean sweeps. Forwards of note: Woodcock, Mealamu/Oliver, Hayman, Jack, Williams, Collins/Thorne, McCaw, So'oialo. Backs: Kelleher/Weepu, Carter, Mauger/McAlister, Umaga, Sivivatu/Rockococo/Gear/Howlett, Muliaina/MacDonald. The time when Carter and McCaw were at the peak of their powers.

I can't pick between these 3 eras and the current crop. It's all just a continuation of All Black greatness to me

TRF_stormer2010 · Nov 25, 2013

Isurus said:
I wanted to mention some of the other great All Black sides that I have watched over the last 30 years or so. Prior to that I am not in a position to make any judgement.

1987-1990 - World Cup winners in '87, unbeaten from World Cup through until August 1990. Dominated world rugby completely. Players included Fitzpatrick, McDowell, Loe, Z.Brooke, Shelford, G.Whetton, A.Whetton, Kirk, Bachop, Fox, Kirwan, Stanley, Wright, Gallagher. Probably the greatest team of the pre-professional era.

1996-1997 - 20 wins, 1 loss (to South Africa in Jo'burg), 1 draw (England at Twickenham). A sublime backline including Marshall, Mehrtens/Spencer, Little, Bunce, Lomu, Wilson/Umaga, Cullen. Forwards Fitzpatrick, Dowd, Brown, I.Jones, R.Brooke, Z.Brooke, M.Jones/Kronfeld, Randell. Possibly the most devastating attacking side ever put together.

2005-2006 - 23 wins, 2 losses (both in South Africa). Includes big series win over Lions, two TriNations series wins, and two end of year clean sweeps. Forwards of note: Woodcock, Mealamu/Oliver, Hayman, Jack, Williams, Collins/Thorne, McCaw, So'oialo. Backs: Kelleher/Weepu, Carter, Mauger/McAlister, Umaga, Sivivatu/Rockococo/Gear/Howlett, Muliaina/MacDonald. The time when Carter and McCaw were at the peak of their powers.

I can't pick between these 3 eras and the current crop. It's all just a continuation of All Black greatness to me

I think for the 1996-1997 ABs you can add 1995 even though you lost the RWC final in 1995 by a hair's breadth.

Bada-Bing! · Nov 25, 2013

I said in another thread that for this All Black team to be the greatest they need to defend their RWC ***le; maybe a bit harsh in hindsight. To be fair they have won it all; but to defend their world ***le would end all arguments IMO.

Big Ewis · Nov 25, 2013

just this:
on a French forum article about the All-Blacks' 14/14 victories this year, the top rated comment goes: "well yeah but they played France 4 times, so it's cheating !"

The Jones Boy · Nov 25, 2013

hahahaha, funny.

The gentlemen above have said it all eloquently.
It is a feat of extraordinary proportions, made moreso because the Boks in particular are in rare and dangerous form. They are the only team in world rugby that I am genuinely concerned about getting a result against... speaking as a Kiwi.
The Aussies have deficiencies in their tight five that has been exposed by the All Blacks, England and who knows, maybe Wales this weekend, but it has been ruthlessly exposed by the Boks this season. OMG, the defeats inflicted on Australia by South Africa have been utterly remorseful, both in Brisbane and the Republic.
The victories garnered in the Rugby championship are the most glorious of the season culminating in the incredible match at Ellis park which goes down as the best ever game of rugby ever played by two awesome teams.
For the AB's to have beaten South Africa both home and away was a monumental task because and I don't think any other team in world rugby would or could do that to the Boks at the moment.
I was really hoping to see South Africa against England, especially with a healthy Corbisero and Tuilagi back for England. That would be a battle royale.
But i digress, this All Black squad has been under expert guidance and tutelage from Mr Hansen and they have come through so much travelling around the world, the huge demands of Super XV rugby, NPC rugby, the RC and then the Autumn series test matches. It has never been done before and by having Australia 3 times, Saffers twice, Argentina home and away, and England, at Twickenham, Ireland in Dublin and France at home 3 times and then in Paris, and Japan thrown in for good measure they have almost covered all of the top powers in world rugby in one season, with the only exception being Wales.
It is a massive looooong season for the boys and I am very proud of their achievement, but more than that I'm really proud of the exciting brand of rugby style they play with.
My other favourite teams are France when they are on song and Wales when they are flying. Those two teams have a natural style and talent or elan when they get it right.
The Boks have a cold efficiency and a startling brutality that England try to emulate and at times achieve as well as per the 2003 RWC winning team.
Ireland have always been full of the passion and intensity that can make them so hard to beat and compete with as the AB's saw last weekend.
This All Black team plays a style of rugby that is educated in the forwards and class in the backs but all the players are expected to have good hands and awareness of their team mates.
The young hooker Dan Coles made a great run and hand off to create the winning try for the AB's on the weekend. All the forwards are expected to front up as well as run, tackle and support in the loose.
The Bok forwards do this very well, the only forward pack that does it better is the AB's. For continuity the Welsh pack would be my third choice but they don't do it nearly regularly enough.
Is this the greatest side ever...
Not until Kaino comes back.
Even then I think they might struggle against the 1987 RWC winners, that was one mighty mighty team.

nickdnz · Nov 26, 2013

I preferred the 1996-1997 teams, but to be perfectly honest I think the All Blacks 2010 squad was better than the current.

Yes we've won every match in a calender year, which is difficult as you have to combat fatigue etc, and that makes 14 wins in a row - but in 2010 we only lost one match against Australia with Stephen Donald in the team (to end a longer winning streak than the current one). All the other performances I felt we were just more dominant in 2010 - we certainly had much more grunt in the forward pack so we were much more competitive at the breakdown. This team has a lot of resillience, the forwards have upped their skill, and they play a gameplan which limits risk more than any other All Black team I've seen. That said there are still too many important areas that I feel we're just not aggressive enough - hopefully when Kaino returns we'll get back to where we should be.

Sam Owen · Nov 26, 2013

No I don't think so. Maybe your question is a bit premature Ewi in that their streak may continue into 2014 and that's probably when you'd want to ask that question cos they could possibly go undefeated next year.

1987 baby blacks is probably the greatest team ever IMO. They won all their RWC games fairly comfortably even the final (which is probably the biggest points deficit in a RWC final). After that they proved they were the best in the world by winning all their games till 1990. No other team in the world or any other All Black team has been so dominant, ever.

TRF Mr Fish · Nov 26, 2013

I don't think you can go past that 2005-2007 team.

smartcooky · Nov 26, 2013

Hard to go past that 2005-2006 team

23 wins, including a run of 15 consecutive bracketed by their only two losses, both to South Africa, away

Spanked the Lions 3-0
A grand slam of the Home Unions
Average 35 points per game
99 tries scored (37 conceded)

Thanks to lassen.co.nz & pick&go for the stats.

Kapa O Pango

Bench Player

Nov 26, 2013

#13

Frank Bunce.

Jack Reacher

Academy Player

Nov 26, 2013

#14

We are in a four year cycle of teams and what everyone has failed to note is that all these great teams in the pro era pretty much join up! In the last 15-20 years only the 1998 season (NZ lost 5 in a row) and probably the general team 2000-2002 weren't our greatest years. Seasons like 99, 03, 07 are 100% remembered for the WC calamities which is fair enough but the rest of those seasons we were pretty good!
What we also need to realise is that NZ is a very small pond for a very big fish, thats why all our matches are night matches now because (educated guess) the European viewing figures for a Super Rugby match or TRC must be 10-20 times greater than NZ, which is also why in this 14 match winning season only 7 of those games are at home, last year it was 6 home 8 away so we are having to perform away more often than not. The illfated England match last year was the highest grossing pay day for NZRU, the players didnt want to be there, as the showed! But if a contract is signed...
How many times has a NH team challenged us here recently France did once 09, England 03, thats it. Until 6N start playing down here a bit more regularly and sending proper squads, we can only judge on TRC matches and AI matches.
So Yes, this current team, not just 2013 squad is the best team ever but its a continuum that goes back to 2008 for this squad really.

Packman

Academy Player

Nov 26, 2013

#15

My answer to Big Ewis question is: Nah, the 1987 All Blacks would kick their ass because they had a mean nasty forward pack that would have beaten ten shades of brown stuff out of Keiran Reed and co. Buck Shelford Vs Keiran Reed, I get the distinct feeling that would wipe that perennial smile of the IRB's incumbent in waiting.

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9

Staff member

TRF Legend

TRF Supporter

Nov 26, 2013

#16

I also don't think this team comes close to the legendary teams of the past. Not just All Black teams... This team still has a lot of flaws and a long way to go to be accredited with such presitgious accolades.

They would come close if they kept this type of momentum next year. But I highly doubt that they will win all their games next year. If anything was to go by, this year's games showed that the other teams are evolving, and adapting to new play styles and they are becoming ever closer to beating the All Blacks. Whereas the All Blacks after the successful Graham Henry era, are just tweaking little things to better their already successful gameplan. I have a feeling that the All Blacks will lose at least 2 games next year. 1 vs. the Bokke, and 1 vs a NH team..

Jack Reacher

Academy Player

Nov 26, 2013

#17

its impossible to compare eras, simply due to rule changes, fitness and general playing conditions.
Think of the 'big men' of the 80's, yes they were mean and tough but there weren't many players who were 100 plus kgs and 20% body fat!. Yes, the had to play the full 80 minutes back then but they also played on poor pitches with a lot of scrums and not much ball movement plus they were literally out on their feet at the whistle.
If todays team played the 87 team in all reality they would put 70-80 on them easy, even someone like Faumuina would absolutely destroy Steve McDowell, Savea against Terry Wright, Read running at Fox or McCahill, The only players that could hold their own would be Brooke, Fitzpatrick, Kirwan, Stanley, Jones, Whetton maybe because those guys were the original prototypes for the changing game.
As for comparing legendary status you cant go past the 87-89 team, not a single team came close, we won a world cup final by 20 points in old scoring!

TRF_stormer2010

Moderator

TRF Legend

Nov 26, 2013

#18

Reading through this thread makes me sad of SA being banned from international rugby. I am sure we could've been pushing hard for both the 1987 and 1999 RWCs and in between. Then we struggled after re-introduction and have had massive political interference throughout that we are only now overcoming since last year.

The NZ cavaliers travelling SA in 1986 and losing the series 3-1 (and that by 1 point in Durban which is about as non-SA as our big cities get) seems to suggest that we would've been highly competitive even if the tour was here and some key players were missing for the ABs... er I mean NZ Cavaliers which also probably has a mental effect; the fact that you aren't playing under your true colors so to speak but stil...

Oh, I forgot the 1981 tour where SA played NZ 3 times in NZ and though losing the series 1-2 played very well and were very close in the two we lost.

***

But back on topic my vote would go for the 1996-ish ABs. Relatively speaking of course as I would imagine todays team would beat the other but I believe one has to see these things in context.

Last edited: Nov 26, 2013