Assisted Suicide

[getofmeland]

Well this is a very controversial topic...

But basically I was reading this article ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/herefor...rcs/7676812.stm ) and it started to make me think about the way we currently work in this country, where potentially the legal system in the UK could charge anyone involved in helping people assist in the suicide, ie family members.

I know how I feel and have made my wishes clear to my family, that if anything happend to me where I couldn't make a choice and I had no way of life o, I would want to be helped to take my own life. Now I know there are various religious factors involved, personally I am not a religious person but would class myself as a christian... I feel people should have a choice if they want to die, and if they require the help, they should be allowed to ask for it, isn't it better for family's and the individual to enjoy their time on earth, why should family members be put through the final moments of a disease which sees a loved one waste away.

So what are your views on Assisted Suicide? Have you asked the question of what you would want to happen?

 

[Sir Speedy]

I thought about this today, funnily enough. Murder, in my opinion, is where one person kills another against their will; without mutual consent; killing an innocent person etc ad nauseam. Euthanasia (sp?) is totally different: if someone is lying on a hospital bed - essentially a vegetable - never able to move again and being kept alive on a machine, then the most humane thing to do is to put him/her out their misery, right...? And if they give permission in some way that proves that they want to die, why deprive them of a privilege that is effectively theirs?
The religious factor seems to affect any topic like this. If it weren't for religious reasons, I can't see any reason why anyone would be against euthanasia... I'm not religious - I don't buy into the whole "Don't play God" factor - so it's a shame, I feel, that people legally have to be left to suffer like that...

 

[An Tarbh]

I get ****** off when I hear the don't play God argument because the people who are making it truly have no understanding of their own faith. Let's say for a minute that God definitely exists, then we also have to take as fact that he made a decision after the Ark not to interfere with anything on Earth ever again. So he's given us free will and has accepted that we are in control of our own destiny. Nothing we do is influenced by God's interference. So when I hear people who claim to be religious blaming God for something that has happened in their lives I lose the rag. So even if I do help a family member to end their life then I don't believe that I am defying God's will.

Just taking a different tack on this, why is it acceptible to put down a dog or any animal but not ok to put a family member out of their suffering. We're all God's creatures, no???

 

[shtove]

I don't get the reports that he tried to take his life several times before. How is that possible if he was paralysed from the neck down?

Either there's something I don't understand about paralysis, or there's a media distortion in place.

Life is awesome - but awesome doesn't always mean pleasant. Suicide is never strong.

Sympathy to his folks - they'll regret everything they've done, including this.

 

[Cymro]

For me if they say I want to die, then if it's there wish then it should be tolorated, if they dont consent then they should not!

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 18 2008, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I thought about this today, funnily enough. Murder, in my opinion, is where one person kills another against their will; without mutual consent; killing an innocent person etc ad nauseam. Euthanasia (sp?) is totally different: if someone is lying on a hospital bed - essentially a vegetable - never able to move again and being kept alive on a machine, then the most humane thing to do is to put him/her out their misery, right...? And if they give permission in some way that proves that they want to die, why deprive them of a privilege that is effectively theirs?
The religious factor seems to affect any topic like this. If it weren't for religious reasons, I can't see any reason why anyone would be against euthanasia... I'm not religious - I don't buy into the whole "Don't play God" factor - so it's a shame, I feel, that people legally have to be left to suffer like that...[/b]

I think you've got that the wrong way round.

Euthenasia means you kill the person - that choice is made by others, usually the state.

The humane course is to let the person die with dignity. That's what religion is for.

The third course is to try and sustain life when it's already spent. That's what the pharmaceutical industry is for, so long as the doctor gets his fee.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 17 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't get the reports that he tried to take his life several times before. How is that possible if he was paralysed from the neck down?

Either there's something I don't understand about paralysis, or there's a media distortion in place.

Life is awesome - but awesome doesn't always mean pleasant. Suicide is never strong.

Sympathy to his folks - they'll regret everything they've done, including this.[/b]

That's bullshit. Suicide requires a lot of courage. Commit suicide because your gf left you or your company is broke is stupid but when life is not really life there's nothing to say, unless you're in the same case.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 18 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 18 2008, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought about this today, funnily enough. Murder, in my opinion, is where one person kills another against their will; without mutual consent; killing an innocent person etc ad nauseam. Euthanasia (sp?) is totally different: if someone is lying on a hospital bed - essentially a vegetable - never able to move again and being kept alive on a machine, then the most humane thing to do is to put him/her out their misery, right...? And if they give permission in some way that proves that they want to die, why deprive them of a privilege that is effectively theirs?
The religious factor seems to affect any topic like this. If it weren't for religious reasons, I can't see any reason why anyone would be against euthanasia... I'm not religious - I don't buy into the whole "Don't play God" factor - so it's a shame, I feel, that people legally have to be left to suffer like that...[/b]

I think you've got that the wrong way round.

Euthenasia means you kill the person - that choice is made by others, usually the state.

The humane course is to let the person die with dignity. That's what religion is for.

The third course is to try and sustain life when it's already spent. That's what the pharmaceutical industry is for, so long as the doctor gets his fee.
[/b][/quote]


What is this dignity you speak of. What dignity is there in living like a vegetable, lying on a bed getting feed, nursed, pampered etc...

What if he's no religious person ?

What would you say to somebody asking you to unplug him because he can't bear anymore ? You' d tell him about dignity ?

 

[Cymro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 17 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 18 2008, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought about this today, funnily enough. Murder, in my opinion, is where one person kills another against their will; without mutual consent; killing an innocent person etc ad nauseam. Euthanasia (sp?) is totally different: if someone is lying on a hospital bed - essentially a vegetable - never able to move again and being kept alive on a machine, then the most humane thing to do is to put him/her out their misery, right...? And if they give permission in some way that proves that they want to die, why deprive them of a privilege that is effectively theirs?
The religious factor seems to affect any topic like this. If it weren't for religious reasons, I can't see any reason why anyone would be against euthanasia... I'm not religious - I don't buy into the whole "Don't play God" factor - so it's a shame, I feel, that people legally have to be left to suffer like that...[/b]

I think you've got that the wrong way round.

Euthenasia means you kill the person - that choice is made by others, usually the state.

The humane course is to let the person die with dignity. That's what religion is for.

The third course is to try and sustain life when it's already spent. That's what the pharmaceutical industry is for, so long as the doctor gets his fee.
[/b][/quote]

Euthanasia (literally "good death" in Ancient Greek) refers to the practice of ending a life in a painless manner. As of 2008, some forms of euthanasia are legal in Belgium,^[1] Luxembourg,^[2] The Netherlands,^[1] Switzerland,^[1] the U.S. state of Oregon,^[3] the Autonomous Community of Andalusia (Spain),^[4]^[5] and Thailand.^[6] Stances on euthanasia vary greatly; it is called murderous by some and merciful by others. Such controversy arises in part from the serious moral issues attached to the subject and in part from the fact that "euthanasia" is an umbrella term that describes a number of different methods. Accordingly, more specific terminology is often needed in order to facilitate constructive discussions on the topic.

 

[alexrugby]

I am a doctor and I am very familiar with the actual facts how the severely diseased people are tortued by the severe pain and disability the diesease brings them

Especially people with cancer and neoplastic diseases suffer much from pain and disability, people from srokes and severe burns do tortue from these conditions.

And sometimes when I put myself in their place, I realize that death is more gift and release for these people than any threat about losing their pooor wasted life.

SO the word Euthanasia came actual into medical societies and than among whole world

Physicians think more pragmatic about their patients' lives and about how these tortued people will withstand everything this in future, so it is called Life Quality/Benefit Ratio and about how to proceed in managment of these patients is completely the patients' right

So death sometimes does benefit much more than harm, and I think if person does suicide with open mind no "assistans" must be charged or pressed under the police pressure.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 18 2008, 10:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 17 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't get the reports that he tried to take his life several times before. How is that possible if he was paralysed from the neck down?

Either there's something I don't understand about paralysis, or there's a media distortion in place.

Life is awesome - but awesome doesn't always mean pleasant. Suicide is never strong.

Sympathy to his folks - they'll regret everything they've done, including this.[/b]

That's bullshit. Suicide requires a lot of courage. Commit suicide because your gf left you or your company is broke is stupid but when life is not really life there's nothing to say, unless you're in the same case.
[/b][/quote]
Suicidal courage - really? Maybe if you're a Roman general defeated by some squat garlic munchers from Gaul.

Anyone may feel **** on a particular day. And that can turn in to a series of days, and then an expectation that those days will go on forever. What's needed then is humility, honesty, and imagination about how good life really is. That takes strength, maybe courage as well.

Life is life. Get on with it!

Charles = Camus.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Oct 18 2008, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 18 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Oct 18 2008, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought about this today, funnily enough. Murder, in my opinion, is where one person kills another against their will; without mutual consent; killing an innocent person etc ad nauseam. Euthanasia (sp?) is totally different: if someone is lying on a hospital bed - essentially a vegetable - never able to move again and being kept alive on a machine, then the most humane thing to do is to put him/her out their misery, right...? And if they give permission in some way that proves that they want to die, why deprive them of a privilege that is effectively theirs?
The religious factor seems to affect any topic like this. If it weren't for religious reasons, I can't see any reason why anyone would be against euthanasia... I'm not religious - I don't buy into the whole "Don't play God" factor - so it's a shame, I feel, that people legally have to be left to suffer like that...[/b]

I think you've got that the wrong way round.

Euthenasia means you kill the person - that choice is made by others, usually the state.

The humane course is to let the person die with dignity. That's what religion is for.

The third course is to try and sustain life when it's already spent. That's what the pharmaceutical industry is for, so long as the doctor gets his fee.
[/b][/quote]


What is this dignity you speak of. What dignity is there in living like a vegetable, lying on a bed getting feed, nursed, pampered etc...

What if he's no religious person ?

What would you say to somebody asking you to unplug him because he can't bear anymore ? You' d tell him about dignity ?
[/b][/quote]
Comparing a human being to a vegetable ... are people even lower than animals? Level with amoeba?

Half of religion is about the celebration of birth, the other half about the preparation for death. We're all in it together, in sympathy. There's the dignity.

Medical intervention can sustain life beyond its natural bounds, and doctors end up as arbiters of the moment of death. That's what causes the controversy - really, who the f*** are they! Let people die - simple as that. They may choose for themselves whether to fight or surrender - nobody's judging them.

If they can't choose, it's a truly difficult bind: technology keeps them going, but technology is expensive and doesn't care.

At least the Americans explore both sides of this, without allowing the state to dictate what "should" happen.

 

[gingergenius]

People should be able to die whenever they want.

There's the pointlessness of life to come to terms with. We exist for no reason. Therefore we must make the best of our existence; not by any imposed standards such as making money or gaining qualifications; simply by achieving happiness for ourselves through whatever means. If you cannot do this and see the cons far outweighing the pros, such as an aged person in a lot of pain with no love for life, then surely suicide is the right option. But it takes a lot of courage.

It's necessary if you feel like this:
"O Death! thou pleasing end of humane woe!
Thou cure of life! thou best of things below!
May'st thou still shun the coward and the slave;
And thy soft slumbers only ease the brave"

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 18 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

People should be able to die whenever they want.

There's the pointlessness of life to come to terms with. We exist for no reason. Therefore we must make the best of our existence; not by any imposed standards such as making money or gaining qualifications; simply by achieving happiness for ourselves through whatever means. If you cannot do this and see the cons far outweighing the pros, such as an aged person in a lot of pain with no love for life, then surely suicide is the right option. But it takes a lot of courage.

It's necessary if you feel like this:
"O Death! thou pleasing end of humane woe!
Thou cure of life! thou best of things below!
May'st thou still shun the coward and the slave;
And thy soft slumbers only ease the brave"[/b]

Ginger pussy.

People are allowed to die whenever they want.

The point of the thread is whether assisted suicide is really giving people that choice, or making the choice for them.

You're in the NHS - surely you see it all the time?

Got any examples?

 

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 17 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think you've got that the wrong way round.

Euthenasia means you kill the person - that choice is made by others, usually the state.

The humane course is to let the person die with dignity. That's what religion is for.

The third course is to try and sustain life when it's already spent. That's what the pharmaceutical industry is for, so long as the doctor gets his fee.[/b]

Doesn't Euthanasia mean 'assisted' suicide? If you're ASSISTING someone in killing themselves, then that person made the choice of wanting to die, and should be allowed to die.
If they've given consent in some form to choose to be killed, I don't see why they should be refused this; other than the 'playing God' reason, which is a pile of bulls*** if you ask me (cue, "Lol, we didn't ask you jackass", comment).
Anyway, I'm not getting myself into a religious debate. Euthanasia should be legalised; I stand by this point - as a few others do and should. There's a difference between killing yourself because you're depressed - knowing that there's a strong possibility that things could get better - and wanting to kill yourself because you're being kept alive by tubes and a machine and have no hope whatsoever of recovering...

 

[Charles]

Exactly. You put it in a nutshell. No general theory or dogma applies to such cases.

 

[dullonien]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 17 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Suicidal courage - really? Maybe if you're a Roman general defeated by some squat garlic munchers from Gaul.

Anyone may feel **** on a particular day. And that can turn in to a series of days, and then an expectation that those days will go on forever. What's needed then is humility, honesty, and imagination about how good life really is. That takes strength, maybe courage as well.

Life is life. Get on with it!

Charles = Camus.[/b]

Somehow you got so far off topic here Shtove, were not talking about somone feeling a bit blue, or some teenager who thinks the world sucks! Were talking about somone with a cronic illness, living in constant pain who has no life. Who are you to tell them to shut the f*** up and get on with it! That's so ignorant it's unbelievable. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if for example, if I was paralysed on a bed, getting fed through a drip, in constant agony with no hope of recovering. Why would anyone want to live like that, why should they be made to live like that?

I think, if it'c clear that a person in certain conditions has signalled they want to end their life, someone should be allowed to 'help' them. Who that person is, I'm not sure, maybe a doktor of some kind? But it's the right thing to do imo.

 

[gingergenius]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Oct 18 2008, 01:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Oct 18 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

People should be able to die whenever they want.

There's the pointlessness of life to come to terms with. We exist for no reason. Therefore we must make the best of our existence; not by any imposed standards such as making money or gaining qualifications; simply by achieving happiness for ourselves through whatever means. If you cannot do this and see the cons far outweighing the pros, such as an aged person in a lot of pain with no love for life, then surely suicide is the right option. But it takes a lot of courage.

It's necessary if you feel like this:
"O Death! thou pleasing end of humane woe!
Thou cure of life! thou best of things below!
May'st thou still shun the coward and the slave;
And thy soft slumbers only ease the brave"[/b]

Ginger pussy.

People are allowed to die whenever they want.

The point of the thread is whether assisted suicide is really giving people that choice, or making the choice for them.

You're in the NHS - surely you see it all the time?

Got any examples?
[/b][/quote]

people aren't allowed to die whenever they want, because it is still illegal to assist a suicide. anyway, how is it making the choice for them? they choose to die, but they can't kill themselves, so they get someone else to do it. they've still made the choice.

I work in the nhs, so I see what all the time? depressed people? well, I work in a cancer ward, everyone there is just hoping to cling on to as much life as they can with the chemotherapy, but they know they're dying. you can't really put them in the euthanasia bracket since they're so desperate to cling on to life that they're sitting with tubes in their arm for 6 hours a week getting treatment off a trial drug that no one knows will work.

what makes me a pussy? because i can understand suicide? or because i posted a poem, which must make me effeminate?

 

[shtove]

Yes - I went too far, didn't I!

Over and out.

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LeksoRugby @ Oct 18 2008, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I am a doctor and I am very familiar with the actual facts how the severely diseased people are tortued by the severe pain and disability the diesease brings them

Especially people with cancer and neoplastic diseases suffer much from pain and disability, people from srokes and severe burns do tortue from these conditions.

And sometimes when I put myself in their place, I realize that death is more gift and release for these people than any threat about losing their pooor wasted life.

SO the word Euthanasia came actual into medical societies and than among whole world

Physicians think more pragmatic about their patients' lives and about how these tortued people will withstand everything this in future, so it is called Life Quality/Benefit Ratio and about how to proceed in managment of these patients is completely the patients' right

So death sometimes does benefit much more than harm, and I think if person does suicide with open mind no "assistans" must be charged or pressed under the police pressure.[/b]

Good post Dr. Lekso :bravo:

i see you have very open mind and very gifted

also hard study over years to become doctor