Australia vs England - 3 Tests - June 2016

[Every Time Ref]

The back row issue potentially affects the lock issue if Itoje moves to 6

 

[Every Time Ref]

Ehhh... I'm nitpicking and advocating the counsel of perfection a little but...

HK - Hartley is a frustratingly incomplete player; Youngs lacks a consistently strong set piece game; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability
THP - Cole is a frustratingly incomplete player; Dave Wilson is dead; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability (and given how much refs do scrums on reputation, that's a bigger problem than most)
8 - Vunipola is unproven on hard SH pitches with fast moving games; Morgan is a bit incomplete and is struggling to find consistency due to injuries; same complaint about everyone else
13 - Joseph looks like he'll be a worthwhile player here for the rest of his career but needs more space to be a big asset; Tuilagi is horribly injury prone; same complaint about everyone else
6 - Seriously, we're saying we're okay because of two guys who've yet to play an international? Clucking bell j'nuh, that's a bit optimistic.
Back Three - Brown and Goode at full-back = Not happy. Questions over Nowell's pace, May's consistency, Yarde's defence, Wade's size etc.etc.

Seriously, right now, we've got one strong area - at least by the highest standards - and that's lock. Everything else is potential and nervousness and the knowledge that an injury or two could leave us sweating spinal fluid.

In fact, the second strongest area is, wait for it, probably...

Fly-half.

People really aren't going to like my guess at the third strongest position...

 

[NickBD]

The back row issue potentially affects the lock issue if Itoje moves to 6

Well The Guardian are reporting England are considering switching Maro Itoje to blindside flanker, also reporting like the Telegraph Ben Te'o, at inside centre,

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...irst-test-australia-brisbane?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The back row issue potentially affects the lock issue if Itoje moves to 6

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...ril-as-eddie-jones-ponders-maro-itoje-switch/

That is what the telegraph are suggesting and Launchbury to no. 4.

 

[Jimbo87]

Ehhh... I'm nitpicking and advocating the counsel of perfection a little but...

HK - Hartley is a frustratingly incomplete player; Youngs lacks a consistently strong set piece game; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability
THP - Cole is a frustratingly incomplete player; Dave Wilson is dead; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability (and given how much refs do scrums on reputation, that's a bigger problem than most)
8 - Vunipola is unproven on hard SH pitches with fast moving games; Morgan is a bit incomplete and is struggling to find consistency due to injuries; same complaint about everyone else
13 - Joseph looks like he'll be a worthwhile player here for the rest of his career but needs more space to be a big asset; Tuilagi is horribly injury prone; same complaint about everyone else
6 - Seriously, we're saying we're okay because of two guys who've yet to play an international? Clucking bell j'nuh, that's a bit optimistic.
Back Three - Brown and Goode at full-back = Not happy. Questions over Nowell's pace, May's consistency, Yarde's defence, Wade's size etc.etc.

Seriously, right now, we've got one strong area - at least by the highest standards - and that's lock. Everything else is potential and nervousness and the knowledge that an injury or two could leave us sweating spinal fluid.

In fact, the second strongest area is, wait for it, probably...

Fly-half.

People really aren't going to like my guess at the third strongest position...

Great assessment not sure about FH, Faz is the only one with consistent form this season. Think Brown attracts some slightly unfair attention he has been solid ok not set the world a light but hasn't done an awful lot wrong only potential replacement I would say is Watson but think Bath players need to be kept to a minimum with the **** storm there recently and there poor season.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Great assessment not sure about FH, Faz is the only one with consistent form this season. Think Brown attracts some slightly unfair attention he has been solid ok not set the world a light but hasn't done an awful lot wrong only potential replacement I would say is Watson but think Bath players need to be kept to a minimum with the **** storm there recently and there poor season.

Personally would rather keep Watson on the wing with Nowell at fullback

 

[Jimbo87]

Personally would rather keep Watson on the wing with Nowell at fullback

Is Nowell good under the high ball? Not convinced he has the gas but certainly a fantastic player

 

[Peat]

Great assessment not sure about FH, Faz is the only one with consistent form this season. Think Brown attracts some slightly unfair attention he has been solid ok not set the world a light but hasn't done an awful lot wrong only potential replacement I would say is Watson but think Bath players need to be kept to a minimum with the **** storm there recently and there poor season.

I ain't banging the drum for the position at fly-half being wonderful, because it ain't, but if you look at the players we've got there, and the players elsewhere, we've got a lot more proven quality there, and a lot more hope for the future than some of them too.

 

[j'nuh]

I dunno about that. We have two players with a handful of caps there now, but I'm not sure it amounts to much proven quality. My confidence in Ford is dropping by the game. He's defensively frail, seems to get charged down a lot, and has relatively regular stinkers. There's also Cipriani, who seems to struggle in the kicking department, which is a no-go for a team without another kicker. And Slade, who isn't getting time there at club. We have enough depth to put out someone half-decent at any given moment, but we have two fly-half positions to fill in a 23, and we don't look great for filling them with talent.

Add that it is probably the most important position on the field, and I find it difficult to see it anything other than one of England's biggest concerns. I would rather have a world class 10 than a world class player in any other position, and we are not even remotely close to world class there.

Other than scrum-half, there's not really another position we lack for top talent as at 10, although there are definitely positions we have worse depth in.

 

[Peat]

Other than scrum-half, there's not really another position we lack for top talent as at 10, although there are definitely positions we have worse depth in.

Uhm. Either that was a very wild piece of hyperbole, or you believe some very interesting things about our 7s and 12s at the very least. Very very least. If you believe our two best 6s are uncapped as well, I'm going to have to add that position to the list too. And quite a few more, but I'd like to point out the absolutely totally obvious ones for now.

 

[Raggs]

I think Daly/Joseph gets discussed because it's a position where there's a reasonable point to discuss. Both are quality players. I'd stick with JJ myself, his defence is fantastic and he's not become an awful attacking force. I would like to see Daly get more time off the bench.

Other positions, there are issues, but in terms of reasonable replacements it becomes a bit murkier. Can Hill really start a test match? I'm sure he could handle 30, but still. Clifford got 80 minutes against Wales, made 3 tackles (missed 2 I think), and turned the ball over 3 times. Harrison gave away 5 penalties. Would you really trust either of them to start? I wouldn't, not yet. I don't trust Watson or Nowell to be good enough at FB at international. I'd be willing to give Goode another go, seeing as he's got rid of that hop/skip thing.

Itoje/Launch/Robshaw seems to me to either be you see Itoje as capable of playing 6, and drop Robshaw, or you don't, and have to decide who out of 3 great locks sits on the bench, with no-one really "deserving" it.

IC is just a fecking mess.

10, I'd be tempted to stick with Ford, but can really understand calls for Farrell, and won't be upset with either. There's a discussion to be had there.

Scrum half, the one we'd mostly prefer to see is hopefully getting some serious game time in SA to show Eddie exactly what he can do, not really a discussion since he's not in Aus.

So, overall, it's pretty clear why JJ/Daly is discussed, it's one of the few discussable points in the side.

 

[Jimbo87]

Not sure how good Devoto is but a friend of mine reckion he's pretty handy at 10 the fact the he didn't play there for bath is is a slight injustice and could be seen as biased due to the management rather than ability, certainly not proven at international but maybe an option.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Not sure how good Devoto is but a friend of mine reckion he's pretty handy at 10 the fact the he didn't play there for bath is is a slight injustice and could be seen as biased due to the management rather than ability, certainly not proven at international but maybe an option.

He played ten for Bath season before last when Ford was away with England and he was bloody awful...

 

[ncurd]

I would say is Watson but think Bath players need to be kept to a minimum with the **** storm there recently and there poor season.

Not convinced by this one. Bath had a **** poor season but they contended in most of the games even being a winning position. Add into the fact were only really looking at the back now with Webber and Wilson MIA, Attwood so far down the pecking order for lock now he wishes he played any other position. The pack was diabolical this season whilst the backs tried their best usually ending in poor back discipline costing us the game.

Remember how England were for discipline under Martin Johnson? That's how we were this season. New coach won't have to do tons more to get running again.

Add into the fact all 3 starting Bath players are proven internationals in a grand slam winning side I can't really see why we need to drop them based on club performances. Even Fords only really had one bad game for England where he's started a few weeks ago.

In fact most would argue there's room for inclusion of 4th Bath player in guise of Roko. Who must be the latest in set of players fans can't understand what management don't see in him.

- - - Updated - - -

He played ten for Bath season before last when Ford was away with England and he was bloody awful...

Yup well truly proved last season he wasn't up to it as Premiership level 10 putting him at international level would be a joke so your friends wrong. I'm not convinced by him at center either and think his selection is more indicative of our center issues than his talent.

 

[spartan32]

They are in somewhat of a rebuilding stage though. Genia, Giteau, Mitchell, AAC, Toomua, Cooper, Tomane, Speight and a few others all lost from their back line. As far as I'm aware they don't even have a specialist 12 in their squad. I think Oz have every chance of winning, but so do England.

And we simply overflow with specialist 12s?!

 

[JJFlash]

I'd be very happy to see Itoje at 6, but when oh when are we going to find a 7 :wall:
Haskell, for all his virtues - yes, he has one or two!, is not and never will be a top notch international 7.

At centre, I feel less qualified to comment, but I can't honestly see Devoto making the grade, and I've never heard to T'eo :unsure:

 

[spartan32]

Ehhh... I'm nitpicking and advocating the counsel of perfection a little but...

HK - Hartley is a frustratingly incomplete player; Youngs lacks a consistently strong set piece game; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability
THP - Cole is a frustratingly incomplete player; Dave Wilson is dead; everyone else lacks experience and proof of ability (and given how much refs do scrums on reputation, that's a bigger problem than most)
8 - Vunipola is unproven on hard SH pitches with fast moving games; Morgan is a bit incomplete and is struggling to find consistency due to injuries; same complaint about everyone else
13 - Joseph looks like he'll be a worthwhile player here for the rest of his career but needs more space to be a big asset; Tuilagi is horribly injury prone; same complaint about everyone else
6 - Seriously, we're saying we're okay because of two guys who've yet to play an international? Clucking bell j'nuh, that's a bit optimistic.
Back Three - Brown and Goode at full-back = Not happy. Questions over Nowell's pace, May's consistency, Yarde's defence, Wade's size etc.etc.

Seriously, right now, we've got one strong area - at least by the highest standards - and that's lock. Everything else is potential and nervousness and the knowledge that an injury or two could leave us sweating spinal fluid.

In fact, the second strongest area is, wait for it, probably...

Fly-half.

People really aren't going to like my guess at the third strongest position...

Sorry but to ****le our back three is just none sense. They were the best in the 6 nations by far as a unit. Nowell is a beast, picks great lines, and is tops in the air, Watson can step blokes in a phone box and has electric pace and is also tops in the air, and both can cover FB pretty darn well. Then there's brown, who may not light up the world, but is solid, tactically aware, breaks tackles and has passion.

Fine we don't have a Julian Sevea, but that guys just a freak.

In fact generally everyone is getting on this teams case. They've just grand slammed and are looking stronger then anything we have had since 2003, and they are only going to get better. The pool of talent is there and Theres plenty of competition for places which keeps people on their game. IMO there is every chance they can win this series, and the Aussies know it. In fact we are probably the only NH that stand any chance of beating any SH at the moment. And yet people still find cause to complain.

 

[Crapspray]

Sorry but to ****le our back three is just none sense.

I think it's a case of recognising that while decent, we're a way off the best teams in the world. Being good in the Six Nations counts for very little now France are pants. The main problems being:

Lack of depth at 15 -- Brown is 30 now and is already a slow international player. By the Japan World Cup he will be 34 and into Cueto-levels of slowness. Only Goode is a full-time fullback at club and he's repeatedly shown he lacks the athleticism to be an international 15.

Wingers -- only Watson and Nowell have consistently shown international class. We've seen flashes of it from Yarde, May, and Rokoduguni, but otherwise we're one injury away from putting in a rookie/liability. Nowell's lack of pace combines badly with Brown's.

In fact generally everyone is getting on this teams case. They've just grand slammed and are looking stronger then anything we have had since 2003, and they are only going to get better.

Again, two issues here:

1. The last time a team won the Grand Slam and went to Australia (Wales 2012) they got whitewashed by a weaker Wallaby side. Beating the NH does nothing more than get 4th in the world rankings. That's more likely to become 5th, thanks to Argentina, than 3rd, 2nd, or 1st.

2. Just because we have a young, inexperienced team doesn't guarantee progress. Lancaster's team peaked mid-2014. After that Twelvetrees, Burrell, Farrell, Yarde, Cole, Lawes, Care, and goodness knows how many others all got steadily worse. The difference between the play in NZ in 2014 and the RWC is staggering at times.

---

Long story short, we're a long way off being truly good and having proper depth (i.e. several, proven options) across the squad. If we rest on laurels after one Grand Slam we'll become Wales 2.0.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So press are suggesting team will be something like this?

1) Vunipola
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Itoje
7) Haskell
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Farrell
11) Nowell
12) T'eo
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown


(With prob a bench of)
16) George
17) Mullan
18) Hill
19) Lawes
20) Clifford
21) Care
22) Ford
23) Daly

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The Aussie scrum isn't bad any more and I think Vunipola will struggle. Haskell is meh and will struggle against Pooper. Feeling ok with the wingers and locks and hopefully Itoje can slot into 6 without any issues. Youngs MUST speed up his delivery. He does a step and a wind up before a pass which adds a good half a second at least to his passes, Australia will shut that down all day.