Backline Dilemma for Gatland in the British Lions Team

[Bada-Bing!]

In fairness, last Lions tour saw Stuart Hogg go as third choice 10 and there was talk of Ian Madigan getting a call. Compared to those two at the time, Sam Davies is a seasoned international veteran at fly-half. Its not completely outrageous to suggest he might get on the tour.

And yes, we're a lot stronger in the position this time round, so its a lot less likely.

Well, Hogg went as a full back back in 2013, which is his best position. Gatland specifically said in the Lions video that Sexton and Farrell were there as the primary fly half options to compete for the test spot with Hogg to cover fly half if necessary. I don't think Hogg was seriously in contention to play fly half in any of the three tests. I think he may have played half a match at fly half in one of the tour warm up matches. Had Sexton or Farrell gone down before the tests, Gatland would have flown in a more experienced fly half compared to Hogg, like Biggar; as Corbisiero was at loosehead when Healy/Jenkins went down.

 

[AzaMatt]

There always seem to be welsh trolls banging on about great their average players are. What I want is done more Scottish trolls, telling me about Finn Russell and Seymour, that would make me happy.

im not sure that would be trolling. Gatland should seriously be considering Russell if he carries on playing as he is at the moment.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

im not sure that would be trolling. Gatland should seriously be considering Russell if he carries on playing as he is at the moment.

I meant that a little tongue in cheek as I think Russell and Seymour should defiantly tour.

 

[Peat]

Well, Hogg went as a full back back in 2013, which is his best position. Gatland specifically said in the Lions video that Sexton and Farrell were there as the primary fly half options to compete for the test spot with Hogg to cover fly half if necessary. I don't think Hogg was seriously in contention to play fly half in any of the three tests. I think he may have played half a match at fly half in one of the tour warm up matches. Had Sexton or Farrell gone down before the tests, Gatland would have flown in a more experienced fly half compared to Hogg, like Biggar; as Corbisiero was at loosehead when Healy/Jenkins went down.

Hogg had 2 starts at fly-half. You're right they weren't planning for him to be in the tests but once you're on tour, who knows? If a guy gets out there and really makes his mark, he's got a chance. Most times the kids on tour are just there to look exciting and be enthusiastic - and I think Gatland's likely to pick an exciting young back or two just to provide that enthusiasm in the squad - but if a player catches fire, he has a chance.

This is far from likely. But its not something they'd never ever do.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Faz to be lions captain?



Up there with the greats Lebron, Serena, Phelps, Brady and Farrell.

not Sexton, not Barrett.

But Owen Farrell.

 

[Saint4805]

If Halfpenny is fit and in reasonable form he will start. I just can't see Gatland leaving him out no matter how well Hogg is playing. I don't see any Scots being in the test 15 especially after Gatland's comments about them losing out the 50/50 calls if there's no Scot on the coaching team. Nel was in with a shout until he got injured but Furlong now looks favourite at 3. I can also see Gatland picking Maitland over Seymour which I think would be the wrong call.

 

[curtbob7]

Lets say we take/use around 40 overall...

1. Mcgrath 2.George 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5.Wyn-Jones 6. CJ Stander 7. Tipuric 8. Faletau

9. Murray 10.Sexton 11.North 12. Farrell 13. Henshaw 14. Watson 15. Hogg

16. Best 17. Marler 18.Cole 19. Henderson 20. Vunipola 21. Youngs 22. L.Williams 23. Halfpenny

Cover:

Jenkins, Vunipola, Hartley, R. Ford, WP Nel, Lee

Kruis, J Gray,

Warburton, O'Brien, Hardie

Webb

Ford

Joseph, Davies, Huw Jones

Zebo

 

[Ali AK9]

Lets say we take/use around 40 overall...

1.Mcgrath 2.George 3. Furlong 4. Itoje 5.Wyn-Jones 6. CJ Stander 7. Tipuric 8. Faletau

9. Murray 10.Sexton 11.North 12. Farrell 13. Henshaw 14. Watson 15. Hogg

16. Best 17. Marler 18.Cole 19. Henderson 20. Vunipola 21. Youngs 22. L.Williams 23. Halfpenny

Cover:

Jenkins, Vunipola, Hartley, R. Ford, WP Nel, Lee

Kruis, J Gray,

Warburton, O’Brien, Hardie

Webb

Ford

Joseph, Davies, Huw Jones

Zebo

TBH I just don't see how Faletau is picked over Vunipola and Heaslip. Everything else I don't really mind, we are all entitled to our own opinions. I don't think North should go, if he is 100% fit and on form yes, but with the amount of concussions he has had, he really needs a big rest from international rugby, let alone a Lions tour. We don't want him to end up like Joost VDW did do we?

 

[GMAC]

Lots of good discussion and thoughts on the backline options.

 

[welshglory]

I'm not sure if it's entirely applicable to a lions tour but I've noticed something about the way in which international teams select their playing style/patterns. It tends to revolve around the make up of the team in terms of club and in particular the Flyhalf.

If you look at New Zealand when they had Carter and a large majority from the Crusaders they played a very similar pattern, now they seemed to have adjusted slightly to the way the hurricanes play. Australia and Foley the same. Ireland with Sexton have a lot of similarities with Leinster, especially a few seasons ago. England with the Ford/Farrell axis executing a Saracens style game plan. South Africa when they had Steyn and the Bulls.

If we can agree that Ford/Sexton are mostly likely to be in contention to start with a majority of the team a mix of Irish and English could we see a similar theme running in the way the Lions management approaches their gameplan?

 

[GMAC]

I'm not sure if it's entirely applicable to a lions tour but I've noticed something about the way in which international teams select their playing style/patterns. It tends to revolve around the make up of the team in terms of club and in particular the Flyhalf.

If you look at New Zealand when they had Carter and a large majority from the Crusaders they played a very similar pattern, now they seemed to have adjusted slightly to the way the hurricanes play. Australia and Foley the same. Ireland with Sexton have a lot of similarities with Leinster, especially a few seasons ago. England with the Ford/Farrell axis executing a Saracens style game plan. South Africa when they had Steyn and the Bulls.

If we can agree that Ford/Sexton are mostly likely to be in contention to start with a majority of the team a mix of Irish and English could we see a similar theme running in the way the Lions management approaches their gameplan?

I agree with your premise. But don't think Ford will be picked in the original touring party.

 

[valley commando]

TBH I just don't see how Faletau is picked over Vunipola and Heaslip. Everything else I don't really mind, we are all entitled to our own opinions. I don't think North should go, if he is 100% fit and on form yes, but with the amount of concussions he has had, he really needs a big rest from international rugby, let alone a Lions tour. We don't want him to end up like Joost VDW did do we?

The reason Falatau will be picked (if fit) is that he is a better player than either his cousin Vunipola or Heaslip, I agree North should not go, he has lost his edge, most opposition wings are aware of his running patterns therefore he is easy to negate as a threat, this is why so many Welsh pundits and astute fans are screaming for Keelan Giles to get 6N starts. TBH unless there is a major change in the way Robot Howler sets Wales up come 6N there are few nailed on Welsh Lions. For me those who are automatic choices would be AWJ, Falatau and Tips of the forwards, 1/2 penny and Liam W in the backs, I fully expect each of them to get at least one test in NZ, Lee and Warbs may make the squad with Webb and Scott W and Johny Fox also squad possibles. However I would rather see Sam D and Giles than any other Wales backs because they would offer something different and would be harder for NZ to predict defensively than players they have watched countless times over the last 4 to 6 years. As always I will get shouted down for having the temerity to mention un-proven players as possible Lions. Uncapped players have toured and starred in the past Tommy David, Brynmor Williams, Will Greenwood, Derek Quinell, Elgan Rees, Sean Maitland and Keith Earls. Earls had'nt even played for Munster (I think).
If Sam D and or Giles do make the squad I promise not to gloat.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The reason Falatau will be picked (if fit) is that he is a better player than either his cousin Vunipola or Heaslip.

What about the player of the year nominations Bart, why did they have the player of the year nominations?

 

[munstermuffin]

Hey Earl's made **** of the Ospreys in a HEC QF week before making squad

On Faletau. I'm not Heaslips biggest fan but must say I don't see what all the love for Faletau is.
Personally I think Stander could be dark horse as he will possibly travel as the cover all back row guy. So we will probably see only 2 of 3 mentioned above travel who specialise only as an 8. I'd take Vunipola and Heaslip. Both 2 different types Heaslip is more a guy who makes his yards outside 10 while Vunipola is a yard maker in close. I don't think Faletau outdoes either guy in there strengths

 

[welshglory]

I agree with your premise. But don't think Ford will be picked in the original touring party.

Ooh controversial

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Hey Earl's made **** of the Ospreys in a HEC QF week before making squad

On Faletau. I'm not Heaslips biggest fan but must say I don't see what all the love for Faletau is.
Personally I think Stander could be dark horse as he will possibly travel as the cover all back row guy. So we will probably see only 2 of 3 mentioned above travel who specialise only as an 8. I'd take Vunipola and Heaslip. Both 2 different types Heaslip is more a guy who makes his yards outside 10 while Vunipola is a yard maker in close. I don't think Faletau outdoes either guy in there strengths

I agree Faletau doesn't out do either in their strengths, but unlike the other 2, he's capable of doing both and doing them very well. Having Vunipola there to make hard yards is all good and well but he's predictable and tacklers like Whitelock and Kaino will have no issues stopping him in his tracks. Heaslip is less predictable but as far as 8s go he's pretty desperately weak and doesn't have the pace to make up for it either. I can't see him causing the NZ defence any real problems.

In the Welsh tour of NZ, Faletau, along with Moriarty and Williams, is just about the only player to come away having done them self any favours. He demonstrated why he's such a threat. He is deceptively quick and is able to lurk outside the 13 causing some damage out there (see his 6 Nations try vs England for an example) or he can carry in the right with his equally deceptive strength (I'm always reminded of his 8 pick up vs Ireland). Even with his extra bulk I don't think Vunipola would've had the speed to score that try vs Ireland and Heaslip is without the to score that one vs England.

People also always talk about Heaslip's work rate in defence, but I would argue Faletau's is just as good, if not better. Was is it last year that he was the top tackler in the 6 Nations? Add his superior ball carrying to that and I'm taking him over Heaslip every day of the week.

I'm a big fan of Binny, but I really can't see a player as 1 dimensional as him causing any real problems in NZ (even if he is the best in the world at that 1 dimension).

Now of course, the beauty of the number 8 shirt is how diverse the range of players in it can be, so of course some will prefer an out and out ball carrier there, or an out an out work horse, but for me the ideal is a mixture of both, and that's why Faletau would be my starting 8.

 

[welshglory]

I think Faletau needs to grow out the afro again or have something on top. Having a head band, scrumcap, distinct hair (or none if you're Parisse) is a lucky charm for 8's. He hasn't looked as athletic in the wide channels since he went for the crop.

 

[munstermuffin]

I agree Faletau doesn't out do either in their strengths, but unlike the other 2, he's capable of doing both and doing them very well. Having Vunipola there to make hard yards is all good and well but he's predictable and tacklers like Whitelock and Kaino will have no issues stopping him in his tracks. Heaslip is less predictable but as far as 8s go he's pretty desperately weak and doesn't have the pace to make up for it either. I can't see him causing the NZ defence any real problems.

In the Welsh tour of NZ, Faletau, along with Moriarty and Williams, is just about the only player to come away having done them self any favours. He demonstrated why he's such a threat. He is deceptively quick and is able to lurk outside the 13 causing some damage out there (see his 6 Nations try vs England for an example) or he can carry in the right with his equally deceptive strength (I'm always reminded of his 8 pick up vs Ireland). Even with his extra bulk I don't think Vunipola would've had the speed to score that try vs Ireland and Heaslip is without the to score that one vs England.

People also always talk about Heaslip's work rate in defence, but I would argue Faletau's is just as good, if not better. Was is it last year that he was the top tackler in the 6 Nations? Add his superior ball carrying to that and I'm taking him over Heaslip every day of the week.

I'm a big fan of Binny, but I really can't see a player as 1 dimensional as him causing any real problems in NZ (even if he is the best in the world at that 1 dimension).

Now of course, the beauty of the number 8 shirt is how diverse the range of players in it can be, so of course some will prefer an out and out ball carrier there, or an out an out work horse, but for me the ideal is a mixture of both, and that's why Faletau would be my starting 8.

That's a great comment man and I 100% agree. It depends on a persons view of an 8 to how they rate them.
Equally I only see Faletau for Wales and rarely for Club. Just I don't have him as well as the other 2

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I agree Faletau doesn't out do either in their strengths, but unlike the other 2, he's capable of doing both and doing them very well. Having Vunipola there to make hard yards is all good and well but he's predictable and tacklers like Whitelock and Kaino will have no issues stopping him in his tracks. Heaslip is less predictable but as far as 8s go he's pretty desperately weak and doesn't have the pace to make up for it either. I can't see him causing the NZ defence any real problems.

In the Welsh tour of NZ, Faletau, along with Moriarty and Williams, is just about the only player to come away having done them self any favours. He demonstrated why he's such a threat. He is deceptively quick and is able to lurk outside the 13 causing some damage out there (see his 6 Nations try vs England for an example) or he can carry in the right with his equally deceptive strength (I'm always reminded of his 8 pick up vs Ireland). Even with his extra bulk I don't think Vunipola would've had the speed to score that try vs Ireland and Heaslip is without the to score that one vs England.

People also always talk about Heaslip's work rate in defence, but I would argue Faletau's is just as good, if not better. Was is it last year that he was the top tackler in the 6 Nations? Add his superior ball carrying to that and I'm taking him over Heaslip every day of the week.

I'm a big fan of Binny, but I really can't see a player as 1 dimensional as him causing any real problems in NZ (even if he is the best in the world at that 1 dimension).

Now of course, the beauty of the number 8 shirt is how diverse the range of players in it can be, so of course some will prefer an out and out ball carrier there, or an out an out work horse, but for me the ideal is a mixture of both, and that's why Faletau would be my starting 8.

You're ignoring Heaslip's strengths, his passing and positioning is the best of any 8 in world rugby, his intelligence when it comes to deciding whether hitting a ruck or offering himself in attack/defence is incredible, his fitness, durability and leadership is the best of the three, I can't remember the last time I've seen him isolated or under pressure with ball in hand either. If Vunipola wasn't such a force of nature I'd argue that there's no real competition at 8 because to beat NZ you need multiple game breakers and incredibly intelligent footballers Vunipola and Heaslip tick one of those boxes each, Faletau has neither if you ask me. Heaslips flexible style is invaluable too, apart from a big ball carrying 8 he can give a coach anything they want from an 8. Faletau is a jack of all trades and a pretty good one too but its a lot less useful when you world class guys doing what you can do better in the second row, on the flanks and in the centres, he stands out in Wales because they don't have a huge amount of talent in the second row, their flankers are very specialised players to the breakdown and tackle area and their centres are pretty rubbish, shouldn't be a problem when you have English and Irish players filling those gaps.

 

[corny]

You're ignoring Heaslip's strengths, his passing and positioning is the best of any 8 in world rugby, his intelligence when it comes to deciding whether hitting a ruck or offering himself in attack/defence is incredible, his fitness, durability and leadership is the best of the three, I can't remember the last time I've seen him isolated or under pressure with ball in hand either. If Vunipola wasn't such a force of nature I'd argue that there's no real competition at 8 because to beat NZ you need multiple game breakers and incredibly intelligent footballers Vunipola and Heaslip tick one of those boxes each, Faletau has neither if you ask me. Heaslips flexible style is invaluable too, apart from a big ball carrying 8 he can give a coach anything they want from an 8. Faletau is a jack of all trades and a pretty good one too but its a lot less useful when you world class guys doing what you can do better in the second row, on the flanks and in the centres, he stands out in Wales because they don't have a huge amount of talent in the second row, their flankers are very specialised players to the breakdown and tackle area and their centres are pretty rubbish, shouldn't be a problem when you have English and Irish players filling those gaps.

Thats the one criticism i have of Heaslip. Most of the time before he's even hit the deck he's thinking ball presentation. It leads to him not winning the collision as he might and the description of being 'desperately weak' can't really be countered. The thing is i've seen games for Leinster and Ireland where our more established carriers are missing and Heaslip has had to take on more responsibility with ball in hand. In short, he's very capable of punching holes when seemingly thats his role. Sadly, those games are too infrequent for my liking.