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British and Irish Lions: is it time to an Argentinian tour?

Superalexmarket

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Considering the current level of Argentine rugby (present and future). Pumas would be a worthy contender to face the Lions?
Moreover, I think that the tours should be every 2 or 3 years.
What do you all think?
 

TRF_Olyy

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Keep it at four years, but I'd be happy to see Argentina incorporated into the cycle - especially as they will have the Super Rugby side to put forward for mid-weeks.
 

ratsapprentice

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Keep it at four years, but I'd be happy to see Argentina incorporated into the cycle - especially as they will have the Super Rugby side to put forward for mid-weeks.

Not really - considering the SR side is largely the same thing as their national side.
 

TRF_Olyy

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Initially, but the earliest the Lions could go there is 6 years (2017 to NZ is locked in) so who knows what it'll be like then.
 

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Argentina just aren't elite enough for me. Argentina are typically on the level of, or a bit below, the best of Europe (the last month excepted). England on their own have won 8 of their last 10 matches. Ireland 6/10. Wales 5/10. Scotland 5/10. As it stands, I just don't think Argentina would give decent competition to the Lions. If they can win a few Rugby Championships, I'd be open to it.
 

ratsapprentice

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Initially, but the earliest the Lions could go there is 6 years (2017 to NZ is locked in) so who knows what it'll be like then.

As long as they 1) only have one SR team, and 2) only select players playing for said team, the "Jaguares" will essentially just be the Pumas.
 

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The Lions need a lot of tough opposition; three matches before the tests, plus mid-weeks. I don't see how Argentina provide that at the moment. I think there's a compelling case for making them a stop on the tour but I think they'd need three super rugby teams at least before touring there made sense.
 

valley commando

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The Lions need a lot of tough opposition; three matches before the tests, plus mid-weeks. I don't see how Argentina provide that at the moment. I think there's a compelling case for making them a stop on the tour but I think they'd need three super rugby teams at least before touring there made sense.

Perhaps the Lions could play a 3 way test series in the future for example, the usual warm up matches and then a 3 tests V the home country with 2 extra tests one for the host country V Argentina and one The Lions V Argentina.
 

Tallshort

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They would be competive in the tests but the mid week games would probably be a bit of a farce given the game is still largely amatur there.

The Lions have played the Pumas before in warm up games.
 

j'nuh

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The Lions need a lot of tough opposition; three matches before the tests, plus mid-weeks. I don't see how Argentina provide that at the moment. I think there's a compelling case for making them a stop on the tour but I think they'd need three super rugby teams at least before touring there made sense.
tbf, the mid-weeks are never really competitive, but it would be just embarrassing playing against amateurs.

But I like the stopover idea. In fact, I'd love to see Lions tour a few countries before stopping over in SANZAR. Consider this schedule:

Week 1: Argentina
Week 1 mid-week: Barbarians (in Argentina)
Week 2: Japan
Week 2 mid-week: Tonga
Week 3: Samoa
Week 3 mid-week: Fiji
Week 4: SANZAR club/team
Week 4 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 5: SANZAR
Week 5 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 6: SANZAR
Week 6 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 7: SANZAR

The tour after could travel Europe for the first couple of weeks before heading south. France and Italy on weekends, Romania and Georgia on mid-weeks.
 
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Le Frére Alpha

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It wouldn't be as commercial as the other three so it won't happen. I think the Lions should be scrapped altogeher, only adds to the "they're better than us down there" attitude. It helps the teams that play the Lions a lot but does nothing for the Lions' nations.

I think the only nation who Ireland, England or Wales couldn't beat in a test series with the prep an financial backing the Lions have is New Zealand, it'd be close with the other three.

The comments of how Los Jaguares will pretty much be the international side has intrigued me though, it risks the team getting used to superugby and not then being able to make the jump to International, I'd be pushing hard for another Argentinian team because while it will establish pro rugby in Argentina it risks their national team going stale.
 

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I'm worried about that. Having only one club, and not picking any player overseas, means that young players don't really have anywhere to go in order to pick up top tier experience. They will have to stick at their semi-pro clubs until they get a chance at the Jaguares. And when a chance opens (retirements, injuries), I'm sure the place will be contested by other players. You could end up with decent players waiting years for a chance. I definitely think Argentina have big enough a player base to need two teams, even if the second team is just a feeder.
 
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HowieLO6

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It wouldn't be as commercial as the other three so it won't happen. I think the Lions should be scrapped altogeher, only adds to the "they're better than us down there" attitude. It helps the teams that play the Lions a lot but does nothing for the Lions' nations.

Couldn't disagree more. The Lions is more about the perpetual bickering as to who is better than who. The Lions bring together 4 nations that have fought in various arenas for centuries for a single purpose. I'm not sure why you think that it should serve a purpose other than simply being a fantastic tour unlike no other in world sport.

Long may it remain and, without anything to base it on, I'd warrant that those players who have already been involved would echo that.
 

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tbf, the mid-weeks are never really competitive, but it would be just embarrassing playing against amateurs.

But I like the stopover idea. In fact, I'd love to see Lions tour a few countries before stopping over in SANZAR. Consider this schedule:

Week 1: Argentina
Week 1 mid-week: Barbarians (in Argentina)
Week 2: Japan
Week 2 mid-week: Tonga
Week 3: Samoa
Week 3 mid-week: Fiji
Week 4: SANZAR club/team
Week 4 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 5: SANZAR
Week 5 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 6: SANZAR
Week 6 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 7: SANZAR

The tour after could travel Europe for the first couple of weeks before heading south. France and Italy on weekends, Romania and Georgia on mid-weeks.

This would be sick.

Imagine getting to play smaller nations who still test all the players? You'd both help their rugby as well as getting the low down on new bolters from nations.
 

valley commando

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tbf, the mid-weeks are never really competitive, but it would be just embarrassing playing against amateurs.

But I like the stopover idea. In fact, I'd love to see Lions tour a few countries before stopping over in SANZAR. Consider this schedule:

Week 1: Argentina
Week 1 mid-week: Barbarians (in Argentina)
Week 2: Japan
Week 2 mid-week: Tonga
Week 3: Samoa
Week 3 mid-week: Fiji
Week 4: SANZAR club/team
Week 4 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 5: SANZAR
Week 5 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 6: SANZAR
Week 6 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 7: SANZAR

The tour after could travel Europe for the first couple of weeks before heading south. France and Italy on weekends, Romania and Georgia on mid-weeks.

Cracking idea I like this a lot, it would take away the uncompetitive midweek games on the last 2 tours were the top players were in camp and not released to play.

- - - Updated - - -

It wouldn't be as commercial as the other three so it won't happen. I think the Lions should be scrapped altogeher, only adds to the "they're better than us down there" attitude. It helps the teams that play the Lions a lot but does nothing for the Lions' nations.

I think the only nation who Ireland, England or Wales couldn't beat in a test series with the prep an financial backing the Lions have is New Zealand, it'd be close with the other three.

The comments of how Los Jaguares will pretty much be the international side has intrigued me though, it risks the team getting used to superugby and not then being able to make the jump to International, I'd be pushing hard for another Argentinian team because while it will establish pro rugby in Argentina it risks their national team going stale.

Please no don't scrap the Lions, a terrible idea which I hope I never see.

- - - Updated - - -

Couldn't disagree more. The Lions is more about the perpetual bickering as to who is better than who. The Lions bring together 4 nations that have fought in various arenas for centuries for a single purpose. I'm not sure why you think that it should serve a purpose other than simply being a fantastic tour unlike no other in world sport.

Long may it remain and, without anything to base it on, I'd warrant that those players who have already been involved would echo that.

Well said.
 

Tallshort

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tbf, the mid-weeks are never really competitive, but it would be just embarrassing playing against amateurs.

But I like the stopover idea. In fact, I'd love to see Lions tour a few countries before stopping over in SANZAR. Consider this schedule:

Week 1: Argentina
Week 1 mid-week: Barbarians (in Argentina)
Week 2: Japan
Week 2 mid-week: Tonga
Week 3: Samoa
Week 3 mid-week: Fiji
Week 4: SANZAR club/team
Week 4 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 5: SANZAR
Week 5 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 6: SANZAR
Week 6 mid-week: SANZAR club/team
Week 7: SANZAR

The tour after could travel Europe for the first couple of weeks before heading south. France and Italy on weekends, Romania and Georgia on mid-weeks.

So thats 8 full international games in the space of 7 weeks? Mate sorry you would finish the last test with less fit players than Wales plus where would they be based? train etc it would be a logistical nightmare.
 

j'nuh

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So thats 8 full international games in the space of 7 weeks? Mate sorry you would finish the last test with less fit players than Wales plus where would they be based? train etc it would be a logistical nightmare.
Part of the problem with the Lions is that these players never really play together and they aren't given a competitive fixture until the first test. Playing other international teams would mean they'd be more prepared by the time the first test comes around. I'd also take a slightly larger squad than usual for the first three weeks, before cutting it down to the usual size when the squad lands in SANZAR. And no player plays all the games anyway, players typically rotate like mad during a Lions tour.

As for logistics, week 1 would be based in Argentina, but weeks 2-7 you can set up in Australia/New Zealand and fly out for the weeks 2-3 games, as they are all close enough.

It will be more difficult when touring South Africa to play in the Pacific, but that might be a good time to tour Europe beforehand. Weeks 1-2 in Europe, weeks 3-7 in South Africa.
 

Le Frére Alpha

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Couldn't disagree more. The Lions is more about the perpetual bickering as to who is better than who. The Lions bring together 4 nations that have fought in various arenas for centuries for a single purpose. I'm not sure why you think that it should serve a purpose other than simply being a fantastic tour unlike no other in world sport.

Long may it remain and, without anything to base it on, I'd warrant that those players who have already been involved would echo that.

The Lion's is a money maker, it used to play a purpose when touring wasn't all that feasible and used to end in complete failure for the four nations but we don't need that now. It's a pretty empty honour especially when you play a team that three of the four countries would have underachieved had they not won the series like last time.

In a time where most the NH discussion on this forum is how to get ourselves to the level of the NH, I really think we should be looking at this regarding it's purpose or lack thereof. The Lions is simply a hindrance to the development of a team in a vital stage of the four year World Cup cycle where teams should be expanding on the foundations they have built in the previous 18 months, instead they go on a worthless and amateurish tour which lacks identity other than videos of Martin Johnson, Willie John MacBride etc... It's a good idea but bad for rugby in the four nations involved.

Without anything to base it on, I'd warrant that those involved in 2013 would rather have won that test series wearing white, green, blue or with a leek on their chest. At the very least I'd want the tour to be moved to the year after the RWC.
 

j'nuh

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I've always thought players saw playing on the Lions tour as being only second to playing in a WC for your country in terms of achievements.

Also, I've always identified more as British than English. The B&I Lions is a team I find much easier to get behind than England personally.
 

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