Call me sige, but- Are penalty kicks really necessary?

[jonny24]

Hear me out

Finally got around to watching Australia vs Barbarians tonight, and what struck me was the almost total lack of penalty kicks. One was kicked when it was right in front and down by 2, but otherwise they were all tapped or into the corner. And not once did I miss it.

Now, first off, there's the fact that a penalty is to punish the offending team. But couldn't the lost ground be almost enough? You already see this in gridiron, where penalties result in yards lost. Perhaps a penalty could have the 10m given before the kick being taken or the ball being played?

Or, you could have so that you can only kick for points in certain situations.
-Only losing team can kick for points- Helps teams make a comeback- adds excitement

-Can only kick one (or 2) pens for every try the opposition has- Again, keeps a losing team team closer

-Can only kick if within 7 points of the other team- Penalties will only matter if it's a close game

-Can only kick if it is the 2nd (or 3rd) consecutive penalty against them- first one is a warning ie "Next time it's points!", but if the opposite team infringes then it's reset.

One or a combo of these would limit how often penalties would come into effect, meaning the effort will be on scoring tries.

I'm sure I'm not thinking off some downsides, so what do you guys think?

 

[Icemn]

come on... we need to give South Africa n chance to win...

i have an issue with running mauls or mauls in general, its obstruction basically... but anyways...

what is your real concern here? do you feel teams kick for posts to often? identify your problem 1st b4 looking for solutions

 

[tituslechmakus]

Well, they are thinking, I don't remember in which championship, about giving 2pts for pens, which would reduce their importance. After all, the funniest in this sport is going behind the line ! Not much excitment in seeing matches ending 24-21 with no try !

 

[Canuck]

Yeah in Australia's National Rugby Championship this year they tried several rule changes in order to improve the flow of the game and make it more exciting. They changed the value of penalty kicks and drop kicks to 2 points and increased the value of conversions to 3 points. SA had the same thing in the varsity cup. Making a penalty kick worth only 1/4 of a converted try really places as emphasis on teams going for touch and gaining ground as opposed to going for points all the time.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'd be happy for making penalty goals worth only 2 with the provisio that we have capable referees, or otherwise captain's referals of ref decisions and yellow cards being only 5 minutes and being handed out more easily to counter the fact that infringements would be less 'punished' on the scoreboard.

 

[smartcooky]

I'd be happy for making penalty goals worth only 2 with the provisio that we have capable referees, or otherwise captain's referals of ref decisions and yellow cards being only 5 minutes and being handed out more easily to counter the fact that infringements would be less 'punished' on the scoreboard.

At elite level, I'd like to see something along similar line to the five-foul rule they have in basketball. I say at elite level, because you would need an official to keep record of who infringed and advise the match referee accordingly. Keep the penalty kick at three points but limit when it could be used. I envisage it working something like this

First: Introduce a new class of sanction, the Indirect Penalty Kick. This would be all for all sanctions that are currently Penalty Kicks but that are not foul or dangerous play, e.g. offside, hands in the ruck etc. An Indirect Penalty Kick is just like a Penalty Kick but it cannot be kicked at goal, so it can be kicked into touch for a gain in ground and with the non-infringing side retaining the throw in. NOTE: All current Free Kicks remain Free Kicks.

Second: Adopt the Law used in the Australian NRC to allow a Penalty Kick (and in this case, an Indirect Penalty Kick) awarded after time has expired, to be kicked into touch with the game continuing.

Third: Yellow cards are reduced to 5 minutes in the bin

Fourth: The following card sanction schedule is used
1. A player commits two technical (i,e, non-foul play) infringements then his third infringement is a yellow card.
2. A player getting a second yellow card gets double time, i.e 10 minutes in the bin.
3. A player getting a third yellow card gets a red card.
4. All Foul or Dangerous play infringements (Law 10) are an automatic minimum yellow card.
5. A when a team commits their 6th infringement in a half, the player who commits that infringement gets a yellow card.

 

[goodNumber10]

At elite level, I'd like to see something along similar line to the five-foul rule they have in basketball. I say at elite level, because you would need an official to keep record of who infringed and advise the match referee accordingly. Keep the penalty kick at three points but limit when it could be used. I envisage it working something like this

First: Introduce a new class of sanction, the Indirect Penalty Kick. This would be all for all sanctions that are currently Penalty Kicks but that are not foul or dangerous play, e.g. offside, hands in the ruck etc. An Indirect Penalty Kick is just like a Penalty Kick but it cannot be kicked at goal, so it can be kicked into touch for a gain in ground and with the non-infringing side retaining the throw in. NOTE: All current Free Kicks remain Free Kicks.

Second: Adopt the Law used in the Australian NRC to allow a Penalty Kick (and in this case, an Indirect Penalty Kick) awarded after time has expired, to be kicked into touch with the game continuing.

Third: Yellow cards are reduced to 5 minutes in the bin

Fourth: The following card sanction schedule is used
1. A player commits two technical (i,e, non-foul play) infringements then his third infringement is a yellow card.
2. A player getting a second yellow card gets double time, i.e 10 minutes in the bin.
3. A player getting a third yellow card gets a red card.
4. All Foul or Dangerous play infringements (Law 10) are an automatic minimum yellow card.
5. A when a team commits their 6th infringement in a half, the player who commits that infringement gets a yellow card.

i really like those suggestions

 

[jonny24]

come on... we need to give South Africa n chance to win...

i have an issue with running mauls or mauls in general, its obstruction basically... but anyways...

what is your real concern here? do you feel teams kick for posts to often? identify your problem 1st b4 looking for solutions

Basically, it's that tries are exciting, and kicks are boring. I can however appreciate their usefulness in a close game, hence my thoughts about how to reduce how often they're used.
@smartcooky, that's really well thought out. So the sixth infringement in a half results in a card regardless of which player it is?

I had forgotten about the new point system in the NRC, I'll have to watch some of it and see how it works.

 

[tituslechmakus]

i really like those suggestions

So do I ! Those matches ending with no tries and only kicks are getting boaring in the end !

 

[Icemn]

i say fck it... just make the ball kak heavy so heavy, they can hardly pass it let alone kick it if they wane kick for touch, give them a lighter ball

seriously...

if you lessen the points for a penalty, making it 2 points, they guys will have more infringements because the punishment is less severe.. this will kill the flow of the game and will surely result in more yellow and red cards.

in saying that, what is the real issue here? kicking for posts?

why not increase the points for a try and conversion to 10 points instead of 7 (try = 7 conversion = 3). This will encourage teams to rather go for tries then kick at post (with a heavy ball )...

maybe if a backline player scores a try is = 7 points but if a forward scores it = 5 points. This will encourage the ball to go wide instead of forwards just crashballing and mauling over the tryline

but...

i still say make the heavy ball happen

 

[Shaggy]

At elite level, I'd like to see something along similar line to the five-foul rule they have in basketball. I say at elite level, because you would need an official to keep record of who infringed and advise the match referee accordingly. Keep the penalty kick at three points but limit when it could be used. I envisage it working something like this

First: Introduce a new class of sanction, the Indirect Penalty Kick. This would be all for all sanctions that are currently Penalty Kicks but that are not foul or dangerous play, e.g. offside, hands in the ruck etc. An Indirect Penalty Kick is just like a Penalty Kick but it cannot be kicked at goal, so it can be kicked into touch for a gain in ground and with the non-infringing side retaining the throw in. NOTE: All current Free Kicks remain Free Kicks.

Second: Adopt the Law used in the Australian NRC to allow a Penalty Kick (and in this case, an Indirect Penalty Kick) awarded after time has expired, to be kicked into touch with the game continuing.

Third: Yellow cards are reduced to 5 minutes in the bin

Fourth: The following card sanction schedule is used
1. A player commits two technical (i,e, non-foul play) infringements then his third infringement is a yellow card.
2. A player getting a second yellow card gets double time, i.e 10 minutes in the bin.
3. A player getting a third yellow card gets a red card.
4. All Foul or Dangerous play infringements (Law 10) are an automatic minimum yellow card.
5. A when a team commits their 6th infringement in a half, the player who commits that infringement gets a yellow card.

I'd be okay with that if repeat infringement close to the try line by defensive teams, resulted in more penalty tries ... also, I assume that you couldn't tap and pass to another player, who then drops a goal, under your indirect scenario.

 

[SelimNiai]

Or, and its an outrageous idea, we can just stop trying to change things that don't need changing

 

[Shaggy]

Or, and its an outrageous idea, we can just stop trying to change things that don't need changing

... are you suggesting that there's too much tinkering with the laws and interpretations, making the game "better" already

Got to admit I thought twice before posting here, as last time I got into a debate about less penalties/speeding up the game, I advocated that penalty goals should be worth more than a try (so that teams wouldn't give them away so easily/intentionally) - that discussion carried on way too long, as I repeatedly had to explain the rationale behind my argument.

 

[SelimNiai]

... are you suggesting that there's too much tinkering with the laws and interpretations, making the game "better" already

Got to admit I thought twice before posting here, as last time I got into a debate about less penalties/speeding up the game, I advocated that penalty goals should be worth more than a try (so that teams wouldn't give them away so easily/intentionally) - that discussion carried on way too long, as I repeatedly had to explain the rationale behind my argument.

Sort of, more pointing out that penalty kicks are a very, very minor point that a minority find dull, and that things like scrums, TMO decisions are a bit more pressing.

In general I would like a period of a season or 3 that we just dont change anything. It must be hard to players, coaches and fans to remember whats legal or not compared to the previous season.

 

[jonny24]

Fair point. I know it's been a pain for me to learn how to scrum again every year.

I just thought it was great to watch a game without 12 pens and 1 try. I'd agree we don't need a bunch of more complex laws to confuse people. But you need something to penalize infringements. In a perfect world, nobody would break the rules and we wouldn't need penalty kicks. I don't have problem with having them in theory, but in practice half the time teams are playing FOR the penalty. When a whole game plan is to play it safe till the other team screws up, then kick the points, its boring.

Part of my perspective is from my own playing experience. At the level I play at there are very few kickers of any exceptional skill. We don't kick for points unless its in front of the posts within about 25m, I think we got 6 points from pens all season. And it's about the same across the league. So instead of scores that are multiples of three, they tend to be of 5 and 7.

Lets get Simon in here to talk about "open, running rugby" and see where that takes us

 

[Shaggy]

Sort of, more pointing out that penalty kicks are a very, very minor point that a minority find dull, and that things like scrums, TMO decisions are a bit more pressing.

In general I would like a period of a season or 3 that we just dont change anything. It must be hard to players, coaches and fans to remember whats legal or not compared to the previous season.

I totally agree with this, it seems that there's constant changes to the Scrum laws/interpretations or the Breakdown ... it's not that these changes are bad necessarily, but the players only just seem to have finished adjusting (and we get some decent Rugby), and they change them again.

... Now that I've gone off on a tangent, let me try to bring it back, I don't mind the way penalties are at the moment, but if you wanted to reduce the impact of penalties on the scoreboard, you could ban the place kick, so all shots at goal would be drop goals ... wouldn't be particularly adventitious to a team like the All Blacks, but the place kick is already non-existent in Sevens isn't it?

 

[smartcooky]

So the sixth infringement in a half results in a card regardless of which player it is?

Yes. No different to what happens now actually, with repeat infringements

I had forgotten about the new point system in the NRC, I'll have to watch some of it and see how it works.

The reduction of the penalty points to 2 and increase of the conversion to 3 has led to some interesting statistics. The ARU conducted a mid-competition statistical review back in October and there was some interesting things to come out.

per match Averages (compared with Super Rugby)

• 24 scrums (17)
• 31 lineouts (26)
• 25 penalties (19)
• 2.1 free kicks (1.1)
• 1.6 yellow cards ( 0.9)
• 8.6 tries (4.8)

Additionally, in the 28 matches played at the point the review was done, only twelve penalty goals were attempted with eight of them successful. Over the same time period, 242 tries were scored, a ratio of 30 tries for every penalty goal In Super Rugby, that ratio is pretty much one to one.

These statistics would seem to indicate that teams are giving away more penalties, resulting less kicks at goal, more kicks for the line or taking of scrum options, and as a result, infringing teams are being punished with having more tries scored against them.

The number of yellow cards is almost double that of Super Rugby.

I'd be okay with that if repeat infringement close to the try line by defensive teams, resulted in more penalty tries

Not necessary. Repeat infringements MUST lead to yellow cards. If they continue to infringe, they will end up being three or four players short, and the tries will come

I... also, I assume that you couldn't tap and pass to another player, who then drops a goal, under your indirect scenario.

Correct. I see the Indirect Free Kick as having the same restrictions for kicking at goal that a Free Kick does. The only difference between a Free Kick and an Indirect Penalty Kick would be that the latter gets a gain in ground if kicked to touch and the non-infringing team gets the throw-in to the line-out.

 

[jonny24]

The reduction of the penalty points to 2 and increase of the conversion to 3 has led to some interesting statistics. The ARU conducted a mid-competition statistical review back in October and there was some interesting things to come out.

per match Averages (compared with Super Rugby)

• 24 scrums (17)
• 31 lineouts (26)
• 25 penalties (19)
• 2.1 free kicks (1.1)
• 1.6 yellow cards ( 0.9)
• 8.6 tries (4.8)

Additionally, in the 28 matches played at the point the review was done, only twelve penalty goals were attempted with eight of them successful. Over the same time period, 242 tries were scored, a ratio of 30 tries for every penalty goal In Super Rugby, that ratio is pretty much one to one.

These statistics would seem to indicate that teams are giving away more penalties, resulting less kicks at goal, more kicks for the line or taking of scrum options, and as a result, infringing teams are being punished with having more tries scored against them.

The number of yellow cards is almost double that of Super Rugby.

I quite like the sounds of that! It seems the ARU has already done what I was getting at. As for the "almost double" yellow cards, I don't think going from 0 or 1 per match to 1 to 2 per match is a big deal. Thanks @smartcooky!