Champions Cup 15/16 - Rd 1 Pool 5 (Bath, Leinster, Toulon, Wasps)

[big ginger 8]

Madigan, McFadden and D.Kearney have been HUGELY hyped in the past, funny to see people now saying they're average after a loss!

Madigan, yes but I have no idea whatsoever would indicate that McFadden or DK have been 'HUGELY hyped'? Don't think there's ever been any talk of them as anything as more than solid internationals who might occasionally have good runs of form where they have a bit more impact. I mean if we use a scale of Jimmy Gopperth to Maro Itoje they're a few rungs above Gopperth nut still below Tommy Seymour.

 

[munstermuffin]

The number of caps Madigan has would suggest he's proven to someone he's international standard... They may be from the bench but he's playing for a reason. Ferg, DK, Madigan, Sexton, Reddan and Kirchner all have at least 10-15 international caps. Playing those players out of position and players not turning up was where that game was lost. Leinster had the players to win.

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The number of caps Madigan has would suggest he's proven to someone he's international standard... They may be from the bench but he's playing for a reason. Ferg, DK, Madigan, Sexton, Reddan and Kirchner all have at least 10-15 international caps. Playing those players out of position and players not turning up was where that game was lost. Leinster had the players to win.

@Snoop sorry yes I should've been clearer. Today was what I meant.

@Cmac again I'll disagree. Madigan has won a lot of caps from the bench simply because he's versatile not because of class. Again Earls has many caps for Ireland as a 13 and he's not international class 13. Caps doesn't mean you are international class. Being talented does that. I'd consider Nacewa and Paul Warwick in his prime international class. Does their lack of caps mean they aren't. No. McFadden isn't international class. Either is Kirchner in my eyes. Dave Kearney is debatable. Snoop even said ye had an average back line and yes some were out of position but they've all played there enough in past. Having rewatched the highlights it simply is put like us here in Munster. The gap is opening at club level and our guys aren't as good anymore collectively. Before where we could take some wins for granted that isn't the case now. Realistically imagine what a full strength Toulon would've done there today. Munster was the same last night we battled to get a BP. If our opposition had been si liar to today we'd have found it hard too

 

[chippieolamus]

Well Maro is the best thing since sliced bread after all...

 

[Tadginator]

Two handy home wins I think. Two sides who struggled a bit with the RWC And are now coming into form against sides who aren't playing at the level they should be. Next week should be a cracking round but I don't see any surprises here.

do you work for fosters? cos that was a good call

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

@Snoop sorry yes I should've been clearer. Today was what I meant.

@Cmac again I'll disagree. Madigan has won a lot of caps from the bench simply because he's versatile not because of class. Again Earls has many caps for Ireland as a 13 and he's not international class 13. Caps doesn't mean you are international class. Being talented does that. I'd consider Nacewa and Paul Warwick in his prime international class. Does their lack of caps mean they aren't. No. McFadden isn't international class. Either is Kirchner in my eyes. Dave Kearney is debatable. Snoop even said ye had an average back line and yes some were out of position but they've all played there enough in past. Having rewatched the highlights it simply is put like us here in Munster. The gap is opening at club level and our guys aren't as good anymore collectively. Before where we could take some wins for granted that isn't the case now. Realistically imagine what a full strength Toulon would've done there today. Munster was the same last night we battled to get a BP. If our opposition had been si liar to today we'd have found it hard too

We obviously have different perceptions of what a proven international or someone with "international class" is. In my opinion it's a player who has played international rugby competently to the point where they receive more caps, with obvious exceptions with te likes of Isa and Wawrick. Therefore having Kirchner, DK, Madigan and McFadden having 31, 14, 25 and 31 caps respectively means they are either proven players internationally or have played under incompetent coaches, the latter being rather unlikely. They don't have to be world beaters or even the best player in the country in their position, just capable of playing top class international rugby and not being out of their depth. All these players fit that bill in their primary position, the backline was so poor today because their weren't enough players in their primary positions and because we had very little quick ball from the pack which was awful as a unit today.

The only gap opening is that of the top French teams and the rest, if you believe that Leinster should expect to lose by 30 points to the 9th (?) placed premiership side at home you are completely wrong. Leinster had 20 players called up to a World Cup squad, 19 to a team who topped their group and lost in the quarters, 1 to the third placed side. A fully fit Leinster side playing good rugby should challenge for European honours, we didn't have that today but we did have a side that should have been good enough to win a game against a mid table English side, the problem today was partly coaching but mostly attitude and I can only hope that it hits the players and coaching staff hard so they get their act together for what is a must win game next week. All is not lost, it's just going to be bloody hard to beat Bath away and Toulon at home with only 1 and 4 weeks to work from the shambles we saw today.

 

[munstermuffin]

We obviously have different perceptions of what a proven international or someone with "international class" is. In my opinion it's a player who has played international rugby competently to the point where they receive more caps, with obvious exceptions with te likes of Isa and Wawrick. Therefore having Kirchner, DK, Madigan and McFadden having 31, 14, 25 and 31 caps respectively means they are either proven players internationally or have played under incompetent coaches, the latter being rather unlikely. They don't have to be world beaters or even the best player in the country in their position, just capable of playing top class international rugby and not being out of their depth. All these players fit that bill in their primary position, the backline was so poor today because their weren't enough players in their primary positions and because we had very little quick ball from the pack which was awful as a unit today.

The only gap opening is that of the top French teams and the rest, if you believe that Leinster should expect to lose by 30 points to the 9th (?) placed premiership side at home you are completely wrong. Leinster had 20 players called up to a World Cup squad, 19 to a team who topped their group and lost in the quarters, 1 to the third placed side. A fully fit Leinster side playing good rugby should challenge for European honours, we didn't have that today but we did have a side that should have been good enough to win a game against a mid table English side, the problem today was partly coaching but mostly attitude and I can only hope that it hits the players and coaching staff hard so they get their act together for what is a must win game next week. All is not lost, it's just going to be bloody hard to beat Bath away and Toulon at home with only 1 and 4 weeks to work from the shambles we saw today.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they're terrible but not an international class. That's like saying some USA players etc are international class. But we will agree to disagree as I suppose either side is irrelevant my main belief is anyone can do it on any given day.
I'm not saying Leinster should be loosing. But Wasps have money. Most top teams have money. Realistically, having spoke to Munster guys at RWC, all the squad felt RWC was a bit of hit and miss but realistically what did Ireland do so brilliant at the RWC. We beat a poor French team, a poor Italian team and 2minnows. Zane K was just a passenger really there too. And to counter your argument Wasps missed guys today and isn't it fair to say regardless of injuries you should never be hockeyed at home like that. The big test is next week when they play a fresh Bath team with a few out to prove a point after their QF defeat in Aviva and guys like Eastmond out to prove he should've been at RWC.

 

[psychic duck]

Bath are saying points should be shared between them and Toulon.

On one hand there's no free weeks left in the season to really fit it in unless it's squashed in as a midweek game, on the otherhand it's obviously in Bath's interests to come away from would have been an away trip to the best team in Europe with 2 points.

 

[munstermuffin]

Bath are saying points should be shared between them and Toulon.

On one hand there's no free weeks left in the season to really fit it in unless it's squashed in as a midweek game, on the otherhand it's obviously in Bath's interests to come away from would have been an away trip to the best team in Europe with 2 points.

Have heard it mentioned domestic games may be moved to midweek and European refixtures as the weekend.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Meeeeh to be honest I think there is some vestigial arrogance here around the expectation that Leinster continue to dominate 'lesser' clubs. The gamehas moved on a lot in just 3 years.

Wasps as mid table English side? Sure, looking at the table after 4 games we literally are. But let's not forget the closenes of both games last year.

Now I'm going to be a bit of a simpleton and post the two lineups as a reminder.

I'm going to say that the only starting places where I'd prefer the Leinster options are as follows:

2. Richardt Strauss
6. Jordi Murphy
7. Sean O'Brien
10. Jonathan Sexton
12. Noel Reid

In addition I'd say that:
Toner and Launchbury are pretty equal in terms of their importance to their teams and what they bring.
Heaslip is also quality it's just Hughes is on fire right now..
Healy would be better than Mullan were he starting
But bear in mind but in most of the above Wasp have great alternatives - George Smith may be no Sean O'Brien but sitll brings a hell of a lot.
Lastly, I know Leinster had a number of injuries.

Leinster Line ups

Jack McGrath
Richardt Strauss
Mike Ross
Devin Toner
Mike McCarthy
Jordi Murphy
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Eoin Reddan
Jonathan Sexton
Dave Kearney
Noel Reid
Fergus McFadden
Zane Kirchner
Ian Madigan

Sean Cronin
Cian Healy
Tadhg Furlong
Hayden Triggs
Jack Conan
Luke McGrath
Cathal Marsh
Gary Ringrose

Wasps Line ups

Matt Mullan
Carlo Festuccia
Jake Cooper-Woolley
Joe Launchbury
Bradley Davies
Sam Jones
George Smith
Nathan Hughes
Joe Simpson
Ruaridh Jackson
Frank Halai
Ben Jacobs
Elliot Daly
Christian Wade
Charles Piutau

Ashley Johnson
Simon McIntyre
Phil Swainston
James Gaskell
Guy Thompson
Dan Robson
Alex Lozowski
Sailosi Tagicakibau

Either way, agree that Leninster should not be losing by that much, if at all, at home - but sometimes its good to look at the opposition who beat you rather than assume that all comers are just a bunch of peasants!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Meeeeh to be honest I think there is some vestigial arrogance here around the expectation that Leinster continue to dominate 'lesser' clubs. The gamehas moved on a lot in just 3 years.

Wasps as mid table English side? Sure, looking at the table after 4 games we literally are. But let's not forget the closenes of both games last year.

Now I'm going to be a bit of a simpleton and post the two lineups as a reminder.

I'm going to say that the only starting places where I'd prefer the Leinster options are as follows:

2. Richardt Strauss
6. Jordi Murphy
7. Sean O'Brien
10. Jonathan Sexton
12. Noel Reid

In addition I'd say that:
Toner and Launchbury are pretty equal in terms of their importance to their teams and what they bring.
Heaslip is also quality it's just Hughes is on fire right now..
Healy would be better than Mullan were he starting
But bear in mind but in most of the above Wasp have great alternatives - George Smith may be no Sean O'Brien but sitll brings a hell of a lot.
Lastly, I know Leinster had a number of injuries.

Leinster Line ups

Jack McGrath
Richardt Strauss
Mike Ross
Devin Toner
Mike McCarthy
Jordi Murphy
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Eoin Reddan
Jonathan Sexton
Dave Kearney
Noel Reid
Fergus McFadden
Zane Kirchner
Ian Madigan

Sean Cronin
Cian Healy
Tadhg Furlong
Hayden Triggs
Jack Conan
Luke McGrath
Cathal Marsh
Gary Ringrose

Wasps Line ups

Matt Mullan
Carlo Festuccia
Jake Cooper-Woolley
Joe Launchbury
Bradley Davies
Sam Jones
George Smith
Nathan Hughes
Joe Simpson
Ruaridh Jackson
Frank Halai
Ben Jacobs
Elliot Daly
Christian Wade
Charles Piutau

Ashley Johnson
Simon McIntyre
Phil Swainston
James Gaskell
Guy Thompson
Dan Robson
Alex Lozowski
Sailosi Tagicakibau

Either way, agree that Leninster should not be losing by that much, if at all, at home - but sometimes its good to look at the opposition who beat you rather than assume that all comers are just a bunch of peasants!!

The gravity of the loss and Leinster's complete failure to perform are forcing me somewhat to focus solely on Leinster so apologies for overlooking Wasps in my assessment but from a completely selfish point of view they're somewhat irrelevant to my points. It's clear to everyone that that Wasps side shouldn't be 27 points better than the Leinster side they played, and with home advantage, more games under their belt and coming off two victories in a season where they've uncovered a few promising youngsters, it can easily be argued that they should have won. That's not saying Wasps are a poor side, it's notoriously difficult to win away from home in Europe and the RDS is one of the tougher prospects for travelling teams with Leinster unbeaten in European games there for 11 games prior to Wasps tearing us a new ring.

In hindsight Wasps were the better side yesterday, not only on the pitch which was obvious but also on paper. Comparing the line ups man for man, a simplistic analysis but useful here, the teams were equal at 3, 8, 9 and 11, Leinster had a slight advantage at 1, 2, 6, 7 and 12 with a huge gulf in class at 10 in Leinster's favour, Wasps had a slight advantage at 4 and 5 with a rather large gulf in class at 13, 14 and 15. That changed throughout the game with Wasps players being better than their opposite numbers in all positions apart from 12 and this is where I, as a Leinster fan, feel that there is no need to discuss Wasps because, no matter who is on the pitch, if 14 players collectively under perform like Leinster yesterday they will lose to any competent opposition, the result shows Wasps are more than competent, not that that needed to be proven, and that something has gone very, very wrong for Leinster and that's what interests me as a Leinster fan more than Wasps being a good, bad or indifferent side.

Unfortunately we're as good as out now because, judging on the pools last year, we'll need at least 17 points and 12 tries from our remaining 5 games, four of which we'll be expected to lose. We still need to use these games to build from here, start by playing players in their correct positions, a backline of Reddan/McGarth, Sexton, DK, Reid, Ringrose, McFadden, Kirchner yesterday would have been far more effective. The next week could define our season, we need Isa, Sexton, O'Brien, Heaslip and Kearney to step up, get everyone in line and ensure this never happens again, if we can beat Bath and start dominating the pro 12 this season is not all lost despite in all likelihood going out of Europe in the pool stages.

 

[Which Tyler]

Bath are saying points should be shared between them and Toulon.

On one hand there's no free weeks left in the season to really fit it in unless it's squashed in as a midweek game, on the otherhand it's obviously in Bath's interests to come away from would have been an away trip to the best team in Europe with 2 points.

You have to remember, Bruce Craig himself, is a bit of a tw@t.
Of course we can play the game, it'll just have to be midweek. We could do with a little sympathy from other clubs to make it Friday : Wednesday : Sunday and ease the pressure a bit; but that's been done plenty of times; including to Bath.
Craig is using the disaster to score some cheap political points. Toulon / ERCC should suggest 3 dates, and if Bath decline all 3, then they forfeit the match, with Toulon assumed to have scored 4 tries and won 28-0 (I think that's the assumption that goes with a forfeit game). Bringing up the insanity of England touring Aus in the summer is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand; and if he wanted to ***** about it, he should have done so when it was announced, or possibly when the EPS is announced in January; he certainly shouldn't have conflated the issue with this postponed match.
BTW - the same rant goes for Boudjellal as well, who wants it played during the 6N and to take priority over the 6N (whilst presumably blissfully unaware that the Prem is still running then)

 

[Peat]

Has anyone mentioned the difference between the coaching staffs?

 

[Tony Manx]

You have to remember, Bruce Craig himself, is a bit of a tw@t.
Of course we can play the game, it'll just have to be midweek. We could do with a little sympathy from other clubs to make it Friday : Wednesday : Sunday and ease the pressure a bit; but that's been done plenty of times; including to Bath.
Craig is using the disaster to score some cheap political points. Toulon / ERCC should suggest 3 dates, and if Bath decline all 3, then they forfeit the match, with Toulon assumed to have scored 4 tries and won 28-0 (I think that's the assumption that goes with a forfeit game). Bringing up the insanity of England touring Aus in the summer is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand; and if he wanted to ***** about it, he should have done so when it was announced, or possibly when the EPS is announced in January; he certainly shouldn't have conflated the issue with this postponed match.
BTW - the same rant goes for Boudjellal as well, who wants it played during the 6N and to take priority over the 6N (whilst presumably blissfully unaware that the Prem is still running then)

Do not wish to be drawn into this as can see both sides of the argument but do believe the summer tour is just too far after a season like this!

If the full compliment go, most of the squad will have had little real break for over a year. Crazy.......and can only be, again, for money!!

 

[Which Tyler]

Oh yes, I agree with that; he just shouldn't have chosen this moment to talk about it; and most especially shouldn't have used the language he did whilst doing so.

"They are like lambs to the slaughter. They are just being destroyed."
Tactful Mr Craig - very tactful.

 

[Raggs]

I think saying Reddan is equal to Simpson, even just on paper, is pushing it...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think saying Reddan is equal to Simpson, even just on paper, is pushing it...

Who do you think is better? They're both good players with holes in their game if you ask me. Reddan just had an absolute howler on Sunday!

 

[Maverick1987]

Good news for bath

http://www.skysports.com/share/10069564

Possibility JJ back for double header against wasps

 

[ratsapprentice]

You have to remember, Bruce Craig himself, is a bit of a tw@t.

Good to see you posting on here, WT.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yay, a first for me.
Usually my arrival is met with tantrums, shouting and flouncing.

 

[Peat]

Yay, a first for me.
Usually my arrival is met with tantrums, shouting and flouncing.

That's my reserve tactic ^_^