Champions Cup 25/26 - Round 1

[TommiG88]

IFW gave a nasty injury to Carrington earlier in the season with a bad upright tackle, wasn't even a pen (apparently) - my sympathy is somewhat limited.

He really plays on the edge. Has anyone got clips of the two incidents from tonight?

I’m comparing 2 collisions in the air. Just questioning consistency of officiating.

The Ramm incident can be found on YouTube

 

[Rinkadink]

I’m comparing 2 collisions in the air. Just questioning consistency of officiating.

You're probably right, just curious (and salty, still) - will try looking it up in a bit but hard without a tw@er account any more.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well, I've had the Northampton score spoilt by a reckless off topic post elsewhere so that's that.

Is the game worth watching anyway?

No, just watch the highlights - a number of nice tries in the game but the periods of play in between were error strewn and frustrating

 

[munstermuffin]

Reading the Munster board, they're completely unaware that a penalty that prevents a try is a penalty try, and that if you can identify the offender it's an automatic yellow.
They seem to think Taigh was penalised for stopping the ball reaching the try line, along with the rest of the Munster pack, and should have been a penalty at worst.
The ball got over the try line, and his illegal binding on the ball carrier stopped the grounding.

Just on this. A few errors.
Tadhg was officially sanctioned for coming in at the side. Not stopping the ball reaching the line.
Equally (and this is official from the 4th official) it is debatable as there was covering players there. A pen try should be awarded if there was clear evidence. There was not 100% definitive certainty.
Statistically, as a 1st offence, and in similar scenarios out of the last 50 pens in similar circumstances only 1 was given as a Pen Try and only 3 were yellow cards.
I think the ref got it badly wrong and the lack of back up from the 4th official I think showed that.

Regardless, it had no bearing on the result. Bath were much better and don't think they would have failed to get 4 tries regardless. We were very poor. Can just dust off and go again.

 

[Which Tyler]

Correction
He came in at the side, changed his binding to the ball carrier, which prevented the grounding of the ball and preventing the try.
Other players being present are irrelevant, as he specifically and individually prevented the try from being scored.
100% certainty isn't and never has been required in the award of a penalty try, but the award of a penalty try necessitates a yellow card, regadless of warnings or previous offences.

It was a nailed on a PT&YC as you could ever see from a maul
Statistically and as a first offence, 100% of penalty try decisions that can identify an individual player at fault result in yellow cards.

 

[Which Tyler]

FTR: this link should start the video at the relevant moment.
Swims up the side, ref shouts and signals the penalty the moment he changes his bind (and uses the words "swimming up the side" not "in at the side"); latches onto the ball carrier, and then turns said ball carrier onto his back, preventing the grounding.

You really couldn't ask for a clearer PT&YC from a maul than that.

 

[munstermuffin]

Correction
He came in at the side, changed his binding to the ball carrier, which prevented the grounding of the ball and preventing the try.
Other players being present are irrelevant, as he specifically and individually prevented the try from being scored.
100% certainty isn't and never has been required in the award of a penalty try, but the award of a penalty try necessitates a yellow card, regadless of warnings or previous offences.

It was a nailed on a PT&YC as you could ever see from a maul
Statistically and as a first offence, 100% of penalty try decisions that can identify an individual player at fault result in yellow cards.

Just giving you the take from other officials and stats done of similar offences. I would disagree too that he single handedly prevented the try being scored as maul still went forward and it was 2 other Munster players who held ball up.
Regardless it was not the definitive part of game.
But was telling on line that 4th official wasn't backing up the decision confidently

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just giving you the take from other officials and stats done of similar offences. I would disagree too that he single handedly prevented the try being scored as maul still went forward and it was 2 other Munster players who held ball up.
Regardless it was not the definitive part of game.
But was telling on line that 4th official wasn't backing up the decision confidently

Maul was going forward, player very clearly commits a cynical foul to try to prevent it and wraps up the ball carrier from an illegal position.

It's a penalty try and yellow card all day, I really don't see how there is any argument...

 

[Which Tyler]

Just giving you the take from other officials and stats done of similar offences. I would disagree too that he single handedly prevented the try being scored as maul still went forward and it was 2 other Munster players who held ball up.
Regardless it was not the definitive part of game.
But was telling on line that 4th official wasn't backing up the decision confidently

Correction - the view of ONE other official - which is both a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) and a losing logical fallacy (the referee is a higher authority)
There was one other Munster player on top of the ball carrier - but he arrives AFTER Beirne has turned the ball carrierover onto his back.
If there was a second, then please enlighten me as to which "other" Munster player was wearing a blue scrum cap, and had "6" on his back in big red lettering (numbering?)

It was absolutely a definitive part of the game.

Going back to the TMO lacking confidence is going back to the logical fallacy.
Commentators say as Dunn goes for the line "that's either try or penalty try"

Watch the video, and tell me that Beirne isn't one of the 2 Munstermen, and wasn't the 1 Munsterman who turned the ball carrier onto his back.

Sod it, I'll even break it down for you (patient cancelled)

1: White6 binds on Black 12
2: W6 swims up to reach beyond B12
3: Ref awards the penalty
4: White 4 joins W6, and angles in to split the maul
5: Ball Carrier tries to get to ground, with W6 firmly attached
6: W6 has turned BC, and is on the ground with him, W4 is still on his feet
7: W4 flops on top of BC and W6
8: Reverse angle of W6 & W4 on top of the BC

The only way Beirne is innocent here is if he isn't wearing a a blue scrum cap and a white shirt with 6 on the back.
If you want to see it in motion - watch the video. W6 initially binds onto B1, then B12, then BC.