Chatty refs have aided the growth of dissent

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Saw this article on another forum.

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/fea...chatty-refs-have-aided-the-growth-of-dissent/

Interesting thought process, personally I agree with it in a lot of ways, i'm certainly not a fan of Owens style of reffing.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Some very good points. I've always been against the first names which crept in a few years ago. The amount of dissent has lept up massively in recent years and needs cutting back - the Owen Farrell example mentioned in the article was new to me but if true is totally unacceptable. He called the referee "mate", are you ******* kidding me?! He should have had a severe talking to for that, no question. I do think a new rule, strictly enforced, that no player can approach any official for any reason between the ref signalling for the 3rd official and the decision being given. No exceptions.

Having said that - to play devil's advocate, I can see the value in a certain amount of friendliness between ref and players, as opposed to the "strict schoolmaster" which you get from some refs. A small amount of friendly, personal connection can go a long way when it comes to persuading other to work with you rather than against you (without overdoing it and being too desperate to please).

 

[smartcooky]

Some interesting points, but I believe that professionalism is the one of the main reasons we have so much dissent and backchat. You only have to look at Wendyball.... the game with the worst record of backchat, dissent and referee abuse.... no "chatty" referees there, just a governing body that won't support referees who take a hard line.

This issue is not so much about referees, as it is about player behaviour... punish bad behaviour and the bad behaviour stops. Also, its not just rugby, or indeed sport, its endemic throughout society and it starts in school. There are no longer any real consequences for bad behaviour at school.

Students used to be severely punished if they backchatted a teacher. Now they get "time out" or counseling, instead of what they should get, a clip around the earhole or made to write "I will not..." lines on the class black/white board a couple of hundred times and given a couple of hours detention each night for a week.

Fixing this issue in rugby is relatively simple... all that needs to happen is to add a few Laws to the end of the Foul Play Law

1. Only the appointed Captain of each team may speak to a match official and even then, only when the ball is not in play (formalizing an unwritten rule)
2. Players must not talk back to a match official or offer the the match official verbal advice.
3. Players must not appeal to a match official in any way, including actions such as waving arms, making mock signals for actions such as giving cards or asking for a replay.
4. Players must not show any dissent against the decision of a match official

All four items should be part of the referee's pre-match briefing. Items 2, 3 and 4, if they happen in the game;
- 1st offence by any member of the team = penalty kick
- 2nd offence by any member of the team = yellow card for the offender
- All subsequent offenses by any member of the team = yellow card for the offender (red card if the same player commits his second yellow card offence)
The behaviour would stop immediately

Fixing Society, well that is not so easy, mainly because of the number of latte-liberal, politically correct, social justice warriors in the teaching profession. It requires a societal change and a return to some old values about personal responsibility and accountability, discipline, behaviour and consequences.

However, one of the first steps I would take is to ban mobile phones in schools.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Whether this reflects a wider social issue ... I'm not sure, and to be honest have no interest in debating it here, on The Rugby Forum.

IR cannot control wider society, or the number of lattes consumed by the teaching profession. They can, and should, have an impact on the level of dissent tolerated in rugby games though. I personally feel your suggested code above is a little too strict (a yellow card for two incidences of arm-waving seems a little harsh IMO), but the principle I am very strongly behind, there has to be much more accountability for these kinds of behaviour.

 

[smartcooky]

IR cannot control wider society, or the number of lattes consumed by the teaching profession. They can, and should, have an impact on the level of dissent tolerated in rugby games though. I personally feel your suggested code above is a little too strict (a yellow card for two incidences of arm-waving seems a little harsh IMO), but the principle I am very strongly behind, there has to be much more accountability for these kinds of behaviour.

100% agree.

Rugby is a closed system, it can only control what it can within its own Laws, which only apply to players playing the game. As I have said, its very simple to fix.

Rugby can, and does, impose consequences for infringements. All that needs to happen is to add those infringements to the list of Laws that have consequences, and then impose the appropriate sanctions when those Laws are infringed.

 

[Scotty]

Some interesting points, but I believe that professionalism is the one of the main reasons we have so much dissent and backchat. You only have to look at Wendyball.... the game with the worst record of backchat, dissent and referee abuse.... no "chatty" referees there, just a governing body that won't support referees who take a hard line.

This issue is not so much about referees, as it is about player behaviour... punish bad behaviour and the bad behaviour stops. Also, its not just rugby, or indeed sport, its endemic throughout society and it starts in school. There are no longer any real consequences for bad behaviour at school.

Students used to be severely punished if they backchatted a teacher. Now they get "time out" or counseling, instead of what they should get, a clip around the earhole or made to write "I will not..." lines on the class black/white board a couple of hundred times and given a couple of hours detention each night for a week.

Fixing this issue in rugby is relatively simple... all that needs to happen is to add a few Laws to the end of the Foul Play Law

1. Only the appointed Captain of each team may speak to a match official and even then, only when the ball is not in play (formalizing an unwritten rule)
2. Players must not talk back to a match official or offer the the match official verbal advice.
3. Players must not appeal to a match official in any way, including actions such as waving arms, making mock signals for actions such as giving cards or asking for a replay.
4. Players must not show any dissent against the decision of a match official

All four items should be part of the referee's pre-match briefing. Items 2, 3 and 4, if they happen in the game;
- 1st offence by any member of the team = penalty kick
- 2nd offence by any member of the team = yellow card for the offender
- All subsequent offenses by any member of the team = yellow card for the offender (red card if the same player commits his second yellow card offence)
The behaviour would stop immediately

Fixing Society, well that is not so easy, mainly because of the number of latte-liberal, politically correct, social justice warriors in the teaching profession. It requires a societal change and a return to some old values about personal responsibility and accountability, discipline, behaviour and consequences.

However, one of the first steps I would take is to ban mobile phones in schools.

While i agree with you, i believe it should be a warning first and progress through like high tackles, chatting back start reversing penalties and only go to yellow card after a few reversals and a team warning.