Cheating in Rugby

[goodNumber10]

Is cheating in rugby ok?

Is it ok to openly and knowingly choose to do something ok, and should that always be dismissed as gamesmanship as opposed to out and out cheating?

Why is it ok to berate Ref's for missing things players do then absolve the players on the bases of "he's just playing the ref"?

 

[Raggs]

Would be nice if the players didn't cheat. I do dislike it when people blame the ref for a very stop start game due to blowing up penalties all the time, it's not the ref breaking the laws.

 

[Peat]

I am ok with cheating/gamesmanship/dark arts/whatever in rugby, with the exception of diving and cheap shots. It adds to the fun for me. Everyone knows what the score is, its up to you to do what you can; it's fair.

I also think that hoping for otherwise is the most futile wish in all history. Sports and cheating go together like drink and hangovers.

And, yeah, I don't see the issue with pointing out an inadequate standard of reffing for the sport while praising elements that make it hard for them. In any case, refs by and large get the most stick not for failing to catch players cheating, but for major mistakes and inconsistencies that had nothing to do with a player cheating.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Every sport has players who transgress at some stage, rugby is no different.

 

[Tony Manx]

What does it really matter what we think? We ain't going to change human nature!

 

[goodNumber10]

Every sport has players who transgress at some stage, rugby is no different.

That doesn't make it right.

 

[The Jones Boy]

It also means it will be ever present

 

[goodNumber10]

It also means it will be ever present

You're not answering the question.

 

[smartcooky]

I think that part of the charm of rugby is its complexity; it not an easy game to understand, and when you have complex Laws governing a game, then you have the actions of players open to individual interpretations. Players like McCaw, Pocock, Hooper, Brussouw and Robshaw play the game at the limit of the Laws, sometimes over it. They ALL do it, and the only reason McCaw comes in for criticism is that he has been the best at it by some margin for a long time.

IMO, a greater concern with is the elements of thuggery in the game. Players who consistently use violent foul play against opponents need to be forced out of the game.

 

[austingtir]

I think that part of the charm of rugby is its complexity; it not an easy game to understand, and when you have complex Laws governing a game, then you have the actions of players open to individual interpretations. Players like McCaw, Pocock, Hooper, Brussouw and Robshaw play the game at the limit of the Laws, sometimes over it. They ALL do it, and the only reason McCaw comes in for criticism is that he has been the best at it by some margin for a long time.

IMO, a greater concern with is the elements of thuggery in the game. Players who consistently use violent foul play against opponents need to be forced out of the game.

I dont agree with anything in this thread at all.... Mccaw is a friggin legend and haters gunna hate. But dont worry guys only a handful of games left and you can start whinging about Cane or Todd being the dirtiest 7 in the games history.....

 

[goodNumber10]

I dont agree with anything in this thread at all.... Mccaw is a friggin legend and haters gunna hate. But dont worry guys only a handful of games left and you can start whinging about Cane or Todd being the dirtiest 7 in the games history.....

This thread isn't about McCaw, take it elsewhere.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think that part of the charm of rugby is its complexity; it not an easy game to understand, and when you have complex Laws governing a game, then you have the actions of players open to individual interpretations. Players like McCaw, Pocock, Hooper, Brussouw and Robshaw play the game at the limit of the Laws, sometimes over it. They ALL do it, and the only reason McCaw comes in for criticism is that he has been the best at it by some margin for a long time.

IMO, a greater concern with is the elements of thuggery in the game. Players who consistently use violent foul play against opponents need to be forced out of the game.

Let's try to keep this off RM and keep it about the ethics of cheating in rugby and whether that is acceptable?

I agree about violent play, with a WC looming WR need to get on top of it sharp.

 

[Mcfadden]

And, yeah, I don't see the issue with pointing out an inadequate standard of reffing for the sport while praising elements that make it hard for them. In any case, refs by and large get the most stick not for failing to catch players cheating, but for major mistakes and inconsistencies that had nothing to do with a player cheating.

Yeah, I agree with that. I thought about it before but didn't know how to articulate without it sounding wrong. I don't think people mind referees making the odd mistake, and they understand the human component. People make mistakes at my work all the time. But if you take Poite for example, some of the errors made in his judgement were just amateur hour stuff and that doesn't relate to players pushing the limits or 'cheating' within the interpretations given.

I mean, this is what sport is. You test the waters to see what you can get away with. Especially rugby where interpretations seem to vary. In part because we have referees playing in different hemispheres where two different styles of rugby get played. You try to get away with what works basically. It's a little utopian to think otherwise. Of course, there are some fundamental things which I deplore. Such as grubby antics off the ball (and on it for that matter), but that isn't what we're talking about here. I'm not sure how to explain it. You play competitively, towards the spirit of the game and you try things out. Is that technically cheating? I dunno, I don't really care because that can get into a philosophical argument. But I don't have a problem with it really.

What I have an issue with is some players being slapped with the 'cheater' tag in a very specific way. Then when you challenge it the accusers will say "no, every openside does it, it's just that XX is good at it" .. but they always pick on the same people. They never watch any other game, of any other openside flanker and make a point of it about someone else, regardless of how "good at it" they are. It's a cowardly argument dressed up as a self righteous one. Those accusers know what they're doing. They know what they're trying to say. And they know exactly which player in the southern hemisphere whos career they're trying to discredit.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Players push every aspect of the game to the absolute limit, the rules should be no different. McCaw was so great because he knew when he could or couldn't get away with "cheating" and used that skill for the benefit of himself and his team.

I don't think ethics come into it at all to be honest, as long as violence doesn't come into it, players are going to do whatever they can to win and taking risks at the breakdown or scrum etc... Is part of that, it could just as easily lose your team a game as win it!

 

[Bluemoon]

Due to the complexity of the rules the game and the fact there are 30 players on the field, it is incredibly difficult to be able to see and process all of the actions of players at one point. The human brain just can't do it. My feeling is that the best referees pretty much do their job full time and are constantly focused on their role. Is it that refs further down the ladder don't get that type of practice or training? Despite that, I don't feel you can blame referees for player cheating, as no matter how good or experienced referee they are, they won't see everything.

I think player cheating is a really grey area. I feel sometimes referees may let small infringements go for the good and fluidity of the game. Perhaps a player doesn't quite hit a ruck from the back foot and the referee may turn a blind eye. If a player picks up on that, they may bend the rules slightly. Perhaps the throw ins aren't exactly down the centre of the line out. Is that cheating? The more obvious cheating (I always remember Neil Backs cheeky use of the hand to pull the ball back in a scrum for Leicester in the HC), it's almost a bit of skill in knowing when to do it, the position of the referee, balancing the risk to the team if your are caught versus the reward etc.

Cheating probably isn't good for the game and it can be hugely frustrating if your team is on the receiving end of someone who has skill in bending the rules without getting caught. I suppose that means we all need a half decent cheater in the team.

 

[goodNumber10]

Ok, everyone put Richie, and flankers aside for the moment.

Last weeks Beldisloe game had two incidents of Aussie players being tripped off the ball, Ashley-Cooper by Smith and Carter tripped someone else (can't remember who). England vs France Haskell gets binned for tripping.

Smith and Carter both know tripping is illegal, yet make two cynical decisions do it anyway, Haskell makes a poor reactionary decision and gets carded.

For me those decisions go against the ethics of the game (and it's not because they are all blacks), do you think they were ok doing that because they got away with it?

 

[Shaggy]

As I alluded to in the "other" thread, until you can get all referee's to interpret the rules the same way, or even the same referee to interpret the game the same way, for every game, I can't see why it isn't ok to test the boundaries to see how a ref is going to rule the various aspects of the game, just so long as player (and fans) don't complain about getting caught.

I am talking about technical infringements here, not foul play; cynical infringements to prevent tries being scored kind of peeve me off too, but players must know that they'll get picked up at international level, and whether it's worth the risk points wise, leaving your team one player short for ten minutes, seems a little stupid to me.

I don't see that the players get let off the hook for blatant mistakes either ... the ref has to have made some pretty blatant errors to draw criticism from me.

Ok, everyone put Richie, and flankers aside for the moment.

Last weeks Beldisloe game had two incidents of Aussie players being tripped off the ball, Ashley-Cooper by Smith and Carter tripped someone else (can't remember who). England vs France Haskell gets binned for tripping.

Smith and Carter both know tripping is illegal, yet make two cynical decisions do it anyway, Haskell makes a poor reactionary decision and gets carded.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]For me those decisions go against the ethics of the game (and it's not because they are all blacks), do you think they were ok doing that because they got away with it?

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]I think this just reinforces my point that you can't expect that referees are going to interpret the rules the same (or even pick everything up), I'm by no means saying that it's okay or justifying/defending those trips, because I don't remember seeing them (I was working, and only got glimpses of the game), but you can't look at those incidents in isolation, there were a number of repeatable incidents by the Australian captain, that could have also got him binned too ... I'm not trying to say two wrongs make a right, more that it's a contact sport, it's competitive by nature, and players are always going to push the boundaries. Is it right, probably not, are they always going to get picked up on it, no, but I can't really see how it can be eliminated. [/FONT]

 

[The Jones Boy]

It doesn't matter whether its ok, it's going to happen, it's a very competitive game and some players will transgress from time to time.

 

[goodNumber10]

It doesn't matter whether its ok, it's going to happen, it's a very competitive game and some players will transgress from time to time.

of course it matters.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ok, everyone put Richie, and flankers aside for the moment.

Last weeks Beldisloe game had two incidents of Aussie players being tripped off the ball, Ashley-Cooper by Smith and Carter tripped someone else (can't remember who). England vs France Haskell gets binned for tripping.

Smith and Carter both know tripping is illegal, yet make two cynical decisions do it anyway, Haskell makes a poor reactionary decision and gets carded.

For me those decisions go against the ethics of the game (and it's not because they are all blacks), do you think they were ok doing that because they got away with it?

I don't think ethics and high speed, endurance and contact sports like rugby go together. These sports are played to be a simulation of a battle and truly are "win at all costs". There are rules but they are bent to the extreme making players heroes or villains so to speak. Bringing "ethics of the game" into question can only take a game into disrepute and lead to bad decisions by authorities, a quick google search of 'Tiernan McCann GAA' will show you how questions like these can ruin players' careers and teams' championships very easily.

Currently this cheating is not breaking rugby, it's hardly an issue and has become part of the game over the professional era. It's impossible to fix and difficult to discourage so I think there are other issues that need to be addressed instead.