Cipriani & Borthwick on Melbourne's Super15 list

[durbutter]

Howlett has not been anonymous, more like solid and a try scorer. like he's always been.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Heyman - Just no...he is leading a poor Newcastle team, and doing fairly well. Not best scrummaging ever, but considering Jon Golding is his propping partener, and the tight five in general are of poor standard, it's not suprising he's not dominating like he did when the tight five consisted of Anton Oliver and Keese Meeues.
Latham - Only thing combined with Gear keeping Worcester competitive, and considering he's 34, do you really expect him to dominate?[/b]

As you say, opinions. Although I will pick up on these two:

Golding is alongside Tonga'huia as possibly the best loosehead in the Premiership this year. He is a really specialy talent and if nurtured well will have a very bright future ahead of him.
Gear is shite, more of a liability to Worcester then anything else. He really is... I'm not saying it to be dramatic, he was even warned by Mike Ruddock that if he doesn't buck his ideas up, he's out. And considering Latham is the same age as Reihana and younger then Mike Catt, I'd expect "the worlds best fullback" to look mildly interested, let alone be competitive and not shown up by pretty much everyone. Over the past few seasons, the only player who kept Wuss competitive was Shane Drahm.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Michelak - Brilliant although stiffled at Stade, steered the Sharks to S14 victory[/b]

He was injured for more than half the S14 and The Sharks have never won a Super Rugby ***le.

 

[Nickdnz]

Not a fan of Golding to be honest, never rate him as a scrummager. All right work rate though. I concede actually my call about Gear and Latham may have been slightly exagerated, however some players can last longer then others, and I think it's fair to say that at 34 years of age Latham's time is up.

 

[Charles]

I will let you guys debate but I'll just throw my two cents about S14.
I understand where Bullitt is coming from rearding forward play. It's not that they don't know about it, it's that there is none.

All the locks and prop can step and offload, but not many of them can scrum (apart from those picked for national teams). Almost every prop that came in the north got showed up. Sure they got better stamina and skills but up here we got guys that don't touch the ball all game. They just prop, ruck, lift, prop, ruck, lift etc...
Again, the opposite is probably true. A NH prop would be considered **** in the south becuse he wouldn't be dynamic enough with the ball inhand and everything. You have to consider the difference in the length of the season which makes for very different conditioning as well.

Nobody has mentioned the reffing of the rucks yet?

 

[Nickdnz]

Saying our only decent props are the international ones, would mean they would dominate in S14, where they don't all ways. There is forwards play, it's just played much quicker, where the fetcher has to get to the breakdown extremley quickly. As for props who run, it's not a talent that is really looked for in S14, and when Tialata touches the ball, it causes many to crings as he tries to side step a winger. Noone can say that Woodcock, Hayman, Summerville etc are not traditionally great props.


By the way, how does a prop, prop? Do you mean scrum, ruck, lift, scrum ruck lift?

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 6 2010, 04:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Saying our only decent props are the international ones, would mean they would dominate in S14, where they don't all ways. There is forwards play, it's just played much quicker, where the fetcher has to get to the breakdown extremley quickly. As for props who run, it's not a talent that is really looked for in S14, and when Tialata touches the ball, it causes many to crings as he tries to side step a winger. Noone can say that Woodcock, Hayman, Summerville etc are not traditionally great props.


By the way, how does a prop, prop? Do you mean scrum, ruck, lift, scrum ruck lift?[/b]

Yes. You want me to do a list of SH **** props? I'm not talking about the breakdown, I'm talking about scrums. Some Saffers and the Crusaders usually have good props, and that's it.

Anyway, not that I really care.

The biggest difference is that there is no relegation in the S14. The style of play is orientated on "we'll score mor points than you" because you can't get out of the comp anyway. In the North the motto is "a win is a win is a win".

 

[Nickdnz]

The Highlanders have had the best front row in the last 10 years...at least know what your talking about.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 6 2010, 05:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The Highlanders have had the best front row in the last 10 years...at least know what your talking about.[/b]

That would be guys like Oliver, Hayman, Hoeft, Meeuws right?

Well they are nothing special up north. Regular scrummagers, not the best scrummagers of the comps.

But then again, there is no point in comparing the 2 styles of play because there is no relegation in the S14 and this alone changes everything.

 

[Steve-o]

This debate is the bigger hunk of **** I've seen on here in awhile.

Honestly guys who are you trying to convince here? Us or yourselves?

You're very insecure about the topic if you can just list players who you think are **** to justify your argument. What about players like Schalk Brits, Rock Elsom, Joe van Niekerk, Michael Claasens, Juandre Kruger (you know this guy Bullitt), BJ Botha, Cobus Visage, Brock James, Wian du Preez, Wikus van Heerden, have they not done well for their respective teams?

What's up with cherry picking players to support this weird argument of telling us our rugby is ****? Not really fair and you know it.

Ronan O'Gara, Bullitt's favourite player in the whole wide world, is the highest point scorer in 6 Nations and Heineken Cup history... I'll stop there.

 

[Charles]

Steve-O I agree that this debate is pointless because:

-almost no NH player has ever played in the South

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14


This being one of the reason why attacking rugby is more practiced in the South. Then there is also the season lenghth being different and so the conditioning being different-am I writing this for the 3rd time at least ?

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Feb 6 2010, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

This debate is the bigger hunk of **** I've seen on here in awhile.

Honestly guys who are you trying to convince here? Us or yourselves?

You're very insecure about the topic if you can just list players who you think are **** to justify your argument. What about players like Schalk Brits, Rock Elsom, Joe van Niekerk, Michael Claasens, Juandre Kruger (you know this guy Bullitt), BJ Botha, Cobus Visage, Brock James, Wian du Preez, Wikus van Heerden, have they not done well for their respective teams?

What's up with cherry picking players to support this weird argument of telling us our rugby is ****? Not really fair and you know it.

Ronan O'Gara, Bullitt's favourite player in the whole wide world, is the highest point scorer in 6 Nations and Heineken Cup history... I'll stop there.[/b]

Best post of thread.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Feb 6 2010, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ronan O'Gara, Bullitt's favourite player in the whole wide world, is the highest point scorer in 6 Nations and Heineken Cup history... I'll stop there.[/b]

Hardly difficult when you've played more games then anyone else by a considerable margin.

Then See: 2nd Lions Test. Which "highest scorer ever"s efforts granted whom a win?


Being literally the only kicker in a country for over a decade doesn't make him a great player.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Feb 6 2010, 06:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Steve-O I agree that this debate is pointless because:

-almost no NH player has ever played in the South

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14

-THERE IS NO RELEGATION IN THE S14


This being one of the reason why attacking rugby is more practiced in the South. Then there is also the season lenghth being different and so the conditioning being different-am I writing this for the 3rd time at least ?[/b]

The lack of relegation definitely plays a part in the teams mindset with regards to the style of play, and more worryingly the way they approach some games.
However the Magners League has no relegation either but it is not exactly hailed by anyone. Also the ML has produced 3 H-Cup champs in 4 years, so no relegation is not a big sticking point in the quality of the teams as you make it out to be.

Point noted on no relegation though, big flaw in Super Rugby concept at the moment.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 6 2010, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Feb 6 2010, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ronan O'Gara, Bullitt's favourite player in the whole wide world, is the highest point scorer in 6 Nations and Heineken Cup history... I'll stop there.[/b]

Hardly difficult when you've played more games then anyone else by a considerable margin.

Then See: 2nd Lions Test. Which "highest scorer ever"s efforts granted whom a win?


Being literally the only kicker in a country for over a decade doesn't make him a great player.

[/b][/quote]

The hate you have for that man as a player runs deep within you

Ok, so you say he is the highest point scorer in 6N history because he has been their only option for the better part of a decade.
And what is the reason the flyhalves from other teams never had the opportunity?
My guess is your response will be because:
- France have 15 new players every game
- England had/has flyhalf that's forever injured (and who's gonna live forever BTW)
- Scotland can only win when there's a freak of nature storm at Murrayfield and only by 3 points
- Wales isn't even a country
- And Italy don't even have a flyhalf

Now that that's sorted, how do you explain his H-Cup accomplishments?

 

[Olyy]

TBF, O'Gara is the top pointscorer in both for the reasons you said.
He's the goalkicker, so every try, he gets an oppurtunity, same with every penalty. And he's played for ages.
Wilkinson is the top International points scorer for the same reason, he just spends alot of time injured, so has fallen behind in the 6N, and Newcastle never competed for topspot in HEC like munster did, so he didn't play in as many hec matches as O'Gara

O'Gara and Wilkinson (up until recently) were pretty much guarenteed the 10 shirts for Ireland and England respectively, other countries switched around and the such (Wales with Hook, for example).

 

[Haj]

Confirmed....cipriani will reach his potential in the super 14.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,2...5002381,00.html

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haj @ Feb 19 2010, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Confirmed....cipriani will reach his potential in the super 14.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,2...5002381,00.html[/b]

Yep, and he'll fit in perfectly with the revolving door policy defences have down there.

 

[Daylightfire]

And the argument turns full circle,,

gotta love Mites ability to wind in people though

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daylightfire @ Feb 19 2010, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

And the argument turns full circle,,

gotta love Mites ability to wind in people though [/b]

 

[QLD]

Great to see he is joining for the right reasons. He's admitted himself he's going to Melbourne to better himself as a player, by playing in the best non-international rugby competition in the world.