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B

Bullitt

Guest
I saw a thread on 606 which (for once) actually looked fairly interesting; What about the national side vs your club (without the clubs players).

If I were to take Saints starting lineup vs Johnsons England:

<div align='center'>Foden 15 Armitage
Ashton 14 Cueto
Clarke 13 Hipkiss
Downey 12 Erinle
Reihana 11 Monye
Myler 10 Wilkinson
Dickson 9 Care
Wilson 8 Crane
Dowson 7 Moody
Best 6 Croft
Kruger 5 Borthwick
Lawes 4 Kay
Murray 3 Payne
Hartley 2 Mears
Tonga'huia 1 Vickery</div>


With the exception of Care and Croft, Northampton have one over their England opposite number in just about every position (I'll even stick my neck out and say Foden is better then Armitage after their 'contest' yesterday, when the NotNot lost the plot completely). When you add the cohesion and familiarity bred into the squad through weekly playing together, I honestly think the club side offers more in attack and better organisation in defence.

It's a similar story when you look at other clubs v England;

Tigers (although tricky considering the current selection policy):
<div align='center'>Hamilton 15 Armitage
J. Murphy 14 Cueto
Hipkiss 13 Tindall
Allen 12 Erinle
Tuqiri 11 Monye
Flood 10 Wilkinson
Youngs 9 Care
Crane 8 Easter
Moody 7 Worsley
Croft 6 Haskell
Deacon 5 Borthwick
Blaze 4 Kennedy
Castro 3 Payne
Chuter 2 Mears
Stankovich 1 Vickery</div>

Again, barring the occasional lapse (Monye being better the Tuqiri), Tigers completely outclass their England counterparts.

Discuss.
 
O

Olyy

Guest
<div align='center'>Macleod 15 Armitage
Cueto 14 Cueto
Tait 13 Hipkiss
Thomas 12 Erinle
Cohen 11 Monye
Hodgson 10 Wilkinson
Peel 9 Care
Koyamaibole 8 Crane
Seymour 7 Moody
Fearns 6 Croft
Gaskell 5 Borthwick
Schofield 4 Kay
Sheridan 3 Payne
Briggs 2 Mears
Roberts 1 Vickery

(I know Sheridans out atm, but that's my ideal Sale XV, if we're going on current players, then Kerr could probably take Payne anyway)</div>


Reckon Sale could take England with those teams, Sale have the edge at 9/10 (Hodgson is crap at international, but good at club level, Peel is better than Care), and in the centres as well, front 3 better for sale as well, possibly the locks as well though Gaskell is relatively unexperienced Borthwick ain't amazing, Koyamaibole > Crane,
Monye > Cohen, Cueto = Cueto, i'd probably say Armitage > Macleod, and the England flankers > Sales (though Seymour is getting better and better, and Fearns deffinatley ain'y bad, especially for a 19yr old)




I agree with Foden playing better than Armitage atm, though Armitage has been out for a while, so could be just getting back into the swing of things. Why Johnson didn't play Foden at all furing the AIs baffles me =/
 
F

feicarsinn

Guest
Leinster Vs Ireland

15 Kearney vs Geordan Murphy Leinster
14 Nacewa vs Tommy Bowe Ireland
13 Brian O'Driscoll vs Darren Cave Leinster
12 Gordon D'arcy vs Paddy Wallace Leinster
11 Luke Fitzgerald(or Shaggy if not fit) vs Keith Earls Leinster
10 Johnny Sexton vs Ronan O'Gara Leinster
9 Eoin Reddan vs Tomas O'Leary Ireland

8 Jamie Heaslip vs David Pollock/Denis Leamy Leinster
7 Sean O'Brien vs David Wallace Ireland
6 Kevin McLaughlin vs Stephen Ferris Ireland
5 Nathan Hines vs Paul O'Connell Ireland
4 Leo Cullen vs Donnacha O'Callaghan Leinster
3 CJ Van Der Linde vs John Hayes Leinster
2 John Fogarty vs Jerry Flannery Ireland
1 Cian Healy vs Marcus Horan Leinster

Alot of close calls in the pack but out wide we'd demolish them. It's interesting to see just how strong we've become over the last few seasons.
 
G

gingergenius

Guest
well those England teams contain Armitage, Care, Crane, Easter, Vickery, Mears and Kay... who weren't regular 1st choice England players this autumn. This I'd say is a vital detail when you're comparing starting lineups.

Let's pick what I think is the strongest England team based on players involved in recent squads: Armitage, Cueto, Tait, Flutey, Monye, Flood, Hodgson, Easter, Moody, Croft, Borthwick, Shaw, Wilson, Mears, Sheridan.

Comparing Northampton:

<div align='center'>Foden 15 Armitage
Ashton 14 Cueto
Clarke 13 Tait
Downey 12 Flutey
Reihana 11 Monye
Myler 10 Flood
Dickson 9 Hodgson
Wilson 8 Easter
Dowson 7 Moody
Best 6 Croft
Kruger 5 Borthwick
Lawes 4 Shaw
Murray 3 Wilson
Hartley 2 Mears
Tonga'huia 1 Sheridan</div>

I'd put Reihana in at 14 and Murray at 3, and have a think about Clarke at 13. No further changes. So there's 1 Englishman at Northampton who I'd maybe have in the team. Doesn't say much really.

Saracens:

<div align='center'>Goode 15 Armitage
Cato 14 Cueto
Ratuvou 13 Tait
Barritt 12 Flutey
Wyles 11 Monye
Jackson 10 Flood
Marshall 9 Hodgson
Joubert 8 Easter
Saull 7 Moody
van Heerden 6 Croft
Borthwick 5 Borthwick
Vyvyan 4 Shaw
Nieto 3 Wilson
Brits 2 Mears
Aguero 1 Sheridan</div>

Well. I'd have Brits over Mears. I'd also think about Ratuvou, Jackson, Joubert, Saull, van Heerden, and Nieto. But only think. And only one of them is English. And this is the top team in the Guinness Premiership.

So no, if you select anything approaching a team that is close to England at full strength, then they'd be much stronger than any club side.
 
B

Bullitt

Guest
If you want to be picky Ginger:

Armitage - On yesterdays evidence is f***ing garbage right now. Sloppy hands and a temperament that'll make him a liability.
Cueto - For the love of god, stop saying he's good.
Tait - If he's the best, how come he spent the whole of the AIs playing for Sale. And hasn't started since the World Cup?
Flutey - Not English
Monye - Brilliant when working, but broken and nobody knows how to fix him.
Flood - Preferable to Wilkinson and Goode, but seriously?
Hodgson - Still 2nd choice to Care. Regardless,
Easter - Decent crash ball 8, but not enough pace. Can't seem to hack it with the England tactics and mentality (oddly enough as he should perfectly suit it.)
Moody - When Moody becomes your best player, it just shows how bad things are.
Croft - Never gets to use his talents or pace.
Borthwick - f***ing garbage, waste-of-space, useless captain, average lineout, no loose play, only picked because he's ex-bath, always made to look stupid.
Shaw - Fair enough, but should be an impact sub.
Wilson - Can't scrum
Mears - Can't play rugby
Sheridan - Can't scrum, play rugby or last 12 months without breaking his leg.


That team, with its negative <strike>"kick the ball away"</strike> "Percentage" tactics, disorganised defence, complete lack of creativity & over reliance on old players from certain clubs would get their arses handed too them.

Par example, the Ospreys had 13 players against England a couple of years back and won. The Ospreys themselves won NOTHING that season (The EDF Mickey Mouse cup doesn't count). Make of which what you will.
 
R

RC

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 3 2010, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Par example, the Ospreys had 13 players against England a couple of years back and won. The Ospreys themselves won NOTHING that season (The EDF Mickey Mouse cup doesn't count). Make of which what you will.[/b]

Painfully true...from an ospreys perspective of course.
 
O

Olyy

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 3 2010, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Tait - If he's the best, how come he spent the whole of the AIs playing for Sale. And hasn't started since the World Cup?[/b]
That's like saying if Borthwick isn't the best, why is he the captain of England/starting every game?

The poor judgement of the team selectors shouldn't reflect on the player (in some cases, anyway)
 
G

gingergenius

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 3 2010, 06:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If you want to be picky Ginger:

Armitage - On yesterdays evidence is f***ing garbage right now. Sloppy hands and a temperament that'll make him a liability.
Cueto - For the love of god, stop saying he's good.
Tait - If he's the best, how come he spent the whole of the AIs playing for Sale. And hasn't started since the World Cup?
Flutey - Not English
Monye - Brilliant when working, but broken and nobody knows how to fix him.
Flood - Preferable to Wilkinson and Goode, but seriously?
Hodgson - Still 2nd choice to Care. Regardless,
Easter - Decent crash ball 8, but not enough pace. Can't seem to hack it with the England tactics and mentality (oddly enough as he should perfectly suit it.)
Moody - When Moody becomes your best player, it just shows how bad things are.
Croft - Never gets to use his talents or pace.
Borthwick - f***ing garbage, waste-of-space, useless captain, average lineout, no loose play, only picked because he's ex-bath, always made to look stupid.
Shaw - Fair enough, but should be an impact sub.
Wilson - Can't scrum
Mears - Can't play rugby
Sheridan - Can't scrum, play rugby or last 12 months without breaking his leg.


That team, with its negative <strike>"kick the ball away"</strike> "Percentage" tactics, disorganised defence, complete lack of creativity & over reliance on old players from certain clubs would get their arses handed too them.

Par example, the Ospreys had 13 players against England a couple of years back and won. The Ospreys themselves won NOTHING that season (The EDF Mickey Mouse cup doesn't count). Make of which what you will.[/b]

I'm not trying to defend the England team, I'm merely saying that there's a huge difference between club and country. It's all very well Saracens beating the South African Coloured XV, but it wouldn't happen too often normally.

For starters, a lot of outstanding club players don't make it at international level, regardless of who the management is. Hodgson was equally **** under a succession of England coaches, including Sir Clive. I could go on naming names from all sorts of different countries. But it highlights that there's a step up.

Anyway, onto the England players you criticise.

Armitage - has just come back from a long injury, and has played poorly in one game and well in another.
Cueto - is good - you bemoan Sackey and Varndell for having poor defensive skills, but a winger like Cueto who is thoroughly dependable in defence doesn't float your boat? I admit it'd be better to have someone more exciting, but he scores tries and rarely lets us down.
Tait - no one picks him because England managers have no balls. They prefer big guys with no brains like Erinle. I'd happily throw in Allen or Clarke, but they'll be ignored too.
Flutey - whether you think he's English or not is irrelevant.
Monye - Looks good playing in teams that give him good ball... ie. Quins last year, England last year, Lions.
Flood - manages a game better and better, takes the ball flat and is by some way out best option at 10.
Hodgson - not as good as Care, but also has the ability to use what's between his ears.
Easter - Not a great option, but reliable. A Cueto for the forwards.
Moody - I agree with what you said. I'd prefer a proper fetcher, like Saull, at 7. However he has played well for England lately.
Croft - capable of looking world class if the rest of the team puts in the effort
Borthwick - an excellent lineout operator, with good hands. Gets blamed for the lack of dynamism of the players around him.
Shaw - world class
Wilson - a decent tighthead. There are very few world class 3s around anyway.
Mears - you don't like him, but he's a good player.
Sheridan - capable of being very good.

May not be a team of world beaters, but what's the Mite alternative? Let's pick a team of players who wouldn't make my team who you probably like.

15. Foden
14. Ashton
13. Clarke
12. Geraghty
11. Simpson-Daniel
10. Myler
9. Care
8. pass.
7. Saull
6. Robshaw
5. Kennedy
4. Lawes
3. pass.
2. Hartley
1. pass.

I couldn't even think of 15 players who reach your usual selection criteria. Even if I could, that kind of team would get slaughtered.
 
M

MunsterMan

Guest
Paul Warwick 15 Rob Kearney - Ireland (Just)
Doug Howlett 14 Andrew Trimble - Munster
Keith Earls 13 Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland
Jean De Villiers 12 Paddy Wallace - Munster
Denis Hurley 11 Tommy Bowe - Ireland
Ronan O'Gara 10 Jonny Sexton - Ireland
Tomás O'Leary 9 Eoin Reddan - Munster


James Coughlan 8 Jamie Heaslip - Ireland
David Wallace 7 Sean O'Brien - Munster
Alan Quinlan 6 Stephen Ferris - Ireland
Paul O'Connell 5 Bob Casey - Munster
Donncha O'Callaghan 4 Leo Cullen - Munster
John Hayes 3Cian Healy - Ireland
Jerry Flannery 2 Sean Cronin - Munster
Wian Du Preez 1 Tom Court - Munster


I'd be fairly confident Munster would win to be honest, the gap in class betweem the forwards is a lot ****er than the gap in class between the backs.
 
F

feicarsinn

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 3 2010, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Paul Warwick 15 Rob Kearney - Ireland (Just)
Doug Howlett 14 Andrew Trimble - Munster
Keith Earls 13 Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland
Jean De Villiers 12 Paddy Wallace - Munster
Denis Hurley 11 Tommy Bowe - Ireland
Ronan O'Gara 10 Jonny Sexton - Ireland
Tomás O'Leary 9 Eoin Reddan - Munster


James Coughlan 8 Jamie Heaslip - Ireland
David Wallace 7 Sean O'Brien - Munster
Alan Quinlan 6 Stephen Ferris - Ireland
Paul O'Connell 5 Bob Casey - Munster
Donncha O'Callaghan 4 Leo Cullen - Munster
John Hayes 3Cian Healy - Ireland
Jerry Flannery 2 Sean Cronin - Munster
Wian Du Preez 1 Tom Court - Munster


I'd be fairly confident Munster would win to be honest, the gap in class betweem the forwards is a lot ****er than the gap in class between the backs.[/b]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
M

monkeypigeon

Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Jan 3 2010, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
John Hayes 3Cian Healy - Ireland
Jerry Flannery 2 Sean Cronin - Munster
Wian Du Preez 1 Tom Court - Munster


I'd be fairly confident Munster would win to be honest, the gap in class betweem the forwards is a lot ****er than the gap in class between the backs.[/b]

Playing DuPreez who's leaving soon instead of Horan and Healy out of position so's Healy can't beat him....

Makes no difference in the end of course. Seeing ass Court would just switch over to the other side and Hayes wins...
 
M

MunsterMan

Guest
I used the example of Teh Mite's post and put the 1 vs 3 and 11 vs 14, it is a head to head after all. (Court is tighthead, Bowe is right winger)
 
M

MunsterMan

Guest
computer_says_no.jpg
 
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