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[COVID-19] General Discussion

Which Tyler

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Efine Dd say that refusing a transplant for someone who is almost certainly not going to die from Covid is pretty far down said slope.
Define "almost certainly not going to die of COVID" in a transplant patient in the midst of a global pandemic.
You'd be hard pressed to find a more vulnerable one TBH.
My argument isnt that is has an impact, but is so small that it isn't morally justifiable to make a decision based on when it is likely outweighed by lots of other factors.

Of you can sit with that ethically then fine but I really can't.
It is morally justifiable, and you've sat with it for decades, whether you knew it or not.

All you're really exposing here is your ignorance of organ transplants. Which is fine, there's no reason to expect that knowledge of Joe Bloggs the member of the public. Hell, my knowledge is pretty sketchy, despite being a medical professional with 2 medical parents.
 
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Kiwiwomble

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OK let's not give any healthcare to fat people then.

Or if you've ever had a speeding charge or anything else that may be slightly dangerous. It's a very weak moral argument if you're not willing to go the full distance and only give organ transplants to the epitome of both health and safe lifestyles
...we do do that...you cant get gastric band surgery unless you meet a whole lot of criteria around changing your diet and exercise, you need to show your willing to do what needed for it to be a success or at least not be wasted...and thats not a hugely scarce resource like a heart

I might get your argument if they were going to throw the heart away, of if we they were artificial and we had warehouses of them, but do we really think it would be fair to the next person on the list, someone that also might die without the transplant but IS willing to do everything they can to protect this "gift"
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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I said any healthcare - there are limited resources across the board.

Just because something is happening now doesn't make it morally correct.
 

Which Tyler

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Which was reductio ad absurdium, and rightly ignored as a logical fallacy.
Hint - nobody is denying "all healthcare" to people just for being unvaccinated (though worth noting that the the US does deny almost all healthcare to people on the principal of being poor)

What's you're better option? Leave some else to die despite having a better chance of survival? That's you're "morally correct" solution?
 

Kiwiwomble

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Just to be clear, if he was given the heart, proceeded to get COVID which is almost likely given how rampant omnicron is combined with being unvaxxinated and having a reduced immune system...and proceeded to die, as well as the next person on the list dying due to missing out on the heart...that would still be a morally acceptable outcome?

I know thats the worst case but its still quite possible

Just more proof how subjective morals are as i would argue the picking the course of action with the highest likelihood of successfully saving a life is the morally correct decision
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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You're both missing the point I made a few posts above though that the vaccination status is just one in a long line of factors, most of which are likely to have more impact.

It's not as simple as not vaxxed = less likely to survive
 

Not Mike Brown's Sock

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Which was reductio ad absurdium, and rightly ignored as a logical fallacy.
Hint - nobody is denying "all healthcare" to people just for being unvaccinated (though worth noting that the the US does deny almost all healthcare to people on the principal of being poor)

What's you're better option? Leave some else to die despite having a better chance of survival? That's you're "morally correct" solution?
Would also point out that the "slippery slope argument" is not always a fallacy, especially when it comes to moral quandries of this nature that rely on consistency of principles
 

Kiwiwomble

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You're both missing the point I made a few posts above though that the vaccination status is just one in a long line of factors, most of which are likely to have more impact.

It's not as simple as not vaxxed = less likely to survive
is it not? in Aus at least its something like 80% of hospitalisations with COVID are unvaccinated, and thats the population in general let alone anyone immunocompromised
 

Which Tyler

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You're both missing the point I made a few posts above though that the vaccination status is just one in a long line of factors, most of which are likely to have more impact.

It's not as simple as not vaxxed = less likely to survive
If you think that, then you're missing our point, which is that vaccination status is just one in a long line of factors, very few of which are likely to have more impact.

Again - what's your preferred, morally acceptable outcome? Because so far, all you've got, is that a person with a higher chance of survival dies instead / as well as the person with a lower chance of survival.

Other things being equal, not vaxxed = less likely to survive.


Please remember, (though I'm not sure you've even acknowledged this yet) it's a zero sum game. There's 1 heart involved here, multiple patients who've been refused it, and 1 patient who's received it.
You think it should have gone to the unvaccinated patient. The doctors with their actual knowledge of the suitability of all the patients, disagree with you.
The heart in question has not been thrown in the bin. It's been out in the chest of someone else. Someone with a better chance of surviving than the person you think should have had it.


Would also point out that the "slippery slope argument" is not always a fallacy, especially when it comes to moral quandries of this nature that rely on consistency of principles
Not always, no. But it 100% is in this case.
 
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Reiser99

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You're both missing the point I made a few posts above though that the vaccination status is just one in a long line of factors, most of which are likely to have more impact.

It's not as simple as not vaxxed = less likely to survive
Did you not read my post that in order to get an organ you are given immunosuppressant drugs that severely weakens your immune system. A weakened immune system is a trade off of getting an organ. Therefore you should do everything to protect yourself from getting ill.
 

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Which Tyler

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Did you not read my post that in order to get an organ you are given immunosuppressant drugs that severely weakens your immune system. A weakened immune system is a trade off of getting an organ. Therefore you should do everything to protect yourself from getting ill.
I'm not convinced he's read anyone's points - he's certainly not been addressing them.

FTR, I did a quick pubmed search last night (insomnia). From what I could tell, "Immunesupression" increases your chances of severe illness / death from covid 200-500% fold (ranging from 0-28 fold).
But sure, a 5-fold increase in the risk of death is barely worth mentioning, won't swing the balance from patient A to patient B at all; and someone who knows neither this, nor the medical histories of any of the patients is absolutely better qualified to comment on it than the people who do an are.
 
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TRF_Olyy

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I thought transplant criteria was very strict anyway?
Like taking into account weight, drinking habits, smoking habits etc.
It's not surprising they take medical/vaccination history into account as well
 

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I thought transplant criteria was very strict anyway?
Like taking into account weight, drinking habits, smoking habits etc.
I thought it's more age that's the main criteria? And only then: weight,bad habits etc. At least should be age first of all,imo
 

ncurd

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I thought transplant criteria was very strict anyway?
Like taking into account weight, drinking habits, smoking habits etc.
It's not surprising they take medical/vaccination history into account as well
Yup absolutely,

Shared it before but my mother wasn't even allowed to go on the bottom of transplant list for a new liver due to it failing for alcohol abuse and her making no measures to improve her lifestyle. This being the first time she ever presented to a doctor with alcohol related illness made this caveat a bit cruel and was bought about by tabloid stories of people getting transplants that didn't deserve it due to the fact they continued abuse afterwards (George Best being a primary target). Reality is she presented and died in a little over a month and would of struggled in any reality of getting a transplant in time.

I've no issue with the concept of lists and placing people on that list and prioritising them based on medical criteria need, chances of survival, lifestyle. I do have an issue with people not being allowed to be placed on that list at all.
 

Which Tyler

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I've no issue with the concept of lists and placing people on that list and prioritising them based on medical criteria need, chances of survival, lifestyle. I do have an issue with people not being allowed to be placed on that list at all.
I'm sorry to hear that about your mother.

I'd agree that no-one should be barred from the list (possibly excepting repeat relapses into self-destructive behaviours, I guess) - but that such behaviour should place you very low on the list.
But if by some miracle, your perfectly tissue matched with a donor, and no-one else comes close enough to use it; then you should get that organ that's otherwise going in the incinerator.
 

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