Do todays players juice up?

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by FerraraZ, Dec 8, 2006.

  1. FerraraZ

    FerraraZ Guest

    Watch a tri nations match from say 1997 and then watch one of last year and I must say that I notice the size and ability of players has increased dramatically. I was wondering if you guys believe that most rugby players use steroids? I dont live in Europe so rugby news here in America is few and far between so I wouldn't know if its more of an accepted practice for rugby players to use suppliments to increase productivity.
     
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  3. They don't use steroids. Not the majority anyway, and any stupid enough to do so get the bans they deserve.

    Players do spend far too much time in the gym and taking protein shkes though. Plus, you have to remember that in 1997 the game had only been professional for 2 years.
     
  4. There's not a drug problem in rugby and hopefully there won't be.

    Personally, I take protein shakes and I do serious weight lifting twice a week and I am alot bigger and developed than most other 16year olds I know. But I am being scouted by Edinburgh so I'm needing as many advantages as I can get in order to get into the squad.

    Players today spend alot of time in the gym getting bigger but I think it's a reflection on how competitive the game is.
     
  5. DC

    DC Guest

    it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
     
  6. it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]

    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
     
  7. DC

    DC Guest

    it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]


    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma'a nonu :rolleyes:

    [​IMG]

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    That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

    I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

    I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

    I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

    The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
     
  8. ALLBLACKS

    ALLBLACKS Guest

    My cousin Brent Kite took me to train with the Manly Sea Eagles and they are professional. They dont spend too much time in the Gym at all. They have personal trainers who specialize in getting each player worked up in areas they need. It was 2 Hrs in the Gym or however long it took you to do your work out plan. Then you get a break if you lived Close by you could go home like we did and be back in 3 hrs for speed training and a team run.

    Spencer is only in the Gym once or twice a day at the most depending on the time of yr. Creatine and Protein shakes have become part of the game though. From my experience with tworking with personal trainers its not how long you work out, But the way you do. If you just pop in the Gym and lift weights you will end up like a body builder, Not ideal for Rugby. There are techniques so that you become faster and stronger, Not just Big and ripped.
     
  9. Ripper

    Ripper Guest

    it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]


    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma'a nonu :rolleyes:

    That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

    I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

    I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

    I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

    The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
    [/b][/quote]
    The size difference I would say is due to genetics - generally they are stronger, bigger and faster than your average little pasty whiteboy Englishman.
     
  10. BigTen

    BigTen Guest

    Do today's players juice up? Interesting question but based on the amount of players there are and the rarity that players get "caught" and banned I would say no.

    However I would add that players that do not play at a professional level don't get tested for drugs. And therefore I would expect that some of these players that struggle to lift their strength, weight and endurance up to the next level would be strongly tempted to find something that gave them a helping hand.

    Or maybe a player that is coming back from injury and can't quite get back to 100% may turn to something illegal to help them out.

    Overall I would say that amongst the top echelon of rugby players drug use is not something that is done but once you get below that level - seriously who knows!
     
  11. it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]


    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma'a nonu :rolleyes:

    That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

    I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

    I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

    I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

    The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
    [/b][/quote]

    In reply to Collins or Nonu I simply pick out the likes of Andrew Sheridan. Individual examples mean squat. I'm sure Ben Cohen can bench press more than Joe Rokocoko, but I know who I'd rather have in my team at the moment.

    Protein shake = supplement. You say you only take them occasionally, but why at all? I'm guessing it's not because your parents told you it was a good idea.

    I'm not just picking my argument out of thin air - ex players have come out and said that players focus too much on strength, hence falling skill levels.

    Your argument is flawed: weight training does not increase speed, sprint training does. Look at the fastest wongers in the world. I doubt they can lift more than Jerry Collins, but I sure as hell know who I would back in a race. Weight training does not increase your rucking proficiency, it's all about the technique. The front row of a scrum is a blinding obvious example of technique over bulk. Tom Smith is probably one of the smaller props in professional rugby, but for years he has been able to take apart his opposite number. This isn't because he goes to the gym to lift and push things non-stop, it's because he ups his skill level rather than just his muscle mass.
     
  12. Bullitt

    Bullitt Guest

    it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]


    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma'a nonu :rolleyes:

    That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

    I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

    I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

    I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

    The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit. [/b][/quote]

    Crawl oput of rippers prostate. He'll only give you a disease.

    You'll find that there is a thing such as "over traning" and it is currently prominant since the begining of the pro era, hense why at any one time 25% of the GP's players will be injured. this happens more in the NH then the SH because of the different nature the game has here; It's much harder here to play an effective backs game, so it's prodominantly forwards based and the game has turned into a collision sport more than a contact sport since players are fitter, stronger and faster now.

    So being as they are taking much more of a pummeling each saturday, without a propper recouperation period they are carring much more wear and tear and are far more prone to serious injuries. You may train 7 days a week, but the standard of your opponants aren't worthy to lace a pro players boots, so in turn you're less likely to get hurt.
     
  13. O'Rothlain

    O'Rothlain Guest

    Let's just look at the pictures of the guys. Are they bigger? Yes. Are they Steroid Bigger? No. I played college football with some guys on steroids, and at my current gymn there are about 5-6 guys using steroids. The results are way different.
     
  14. DC

    DC Guest

    it's their job to be in that gym training and becoming the strongest,fastest,and most physically prepared men on the field

    i don't see how it can be said they are spending to much time in there
    [/b][/quote]


    Do you not wonder why there are far more injuries in todays game compared to the amateur era? It's because players are now so strong that the game has been taken to a new physical level. One many cannot cope with.

    Too much time in the gym has also lead to a decline in skill levels. I would be willing to bet that New Zealand players do not spend as much time in the gym as their English counterparts, but as a result, the skill levels of players in all positions are incredible.

    Players with big muscles are not helping the game one bit. I'm sure you take all kinds of supplements which your body, at the age it is, isn't ready for. Would you take them if you weren't copying the example of the professionals? I doubt it.
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes let me forget that pat sanderson has been in the gym more than jerry collins or ma'a nonu :rolleyes:

    That arguement is very wrong should i say so myself.. Sure there are more injuries but the bigger you are the harder you fall, its a fact of the game there are going to be injuries, but lifting also helps prevent a lot of these injuries, i.e. dislocation of joints.

    I find it hard to believe that time in the gym decreases skill level. If anything it would make you better.. think it helps with your strength to brush off tackles, speed, and how you ruck, how it is detrimental to your playing ability you point it out to me.

    I myself dont take supplements, only the occasional protein shake and i havent had one of those in a few months, all i do is lift and run, i dont lift my legs cause it can be troublesome for my knees (osgood schlotters a few years back)

    I also train 7 days a week in the offseason and on season, i lift three times a week, run 4 and do passing and kicking drills daily.. I dont copy off any particular professional in any way, i lift because im small on the field, the weights give me a definite advantage..with the right mix of weights, cardio, and skill training rugby players will reach new heights in terms of skill level and physicality.

    The thing is, is that new zealand is so dominant because they combine the rugby intelligence and the strength from weights together so nicely that they mesh instantly to form a very very very dominant unit.
    [/b][/quote]

    In reply to Collins or Nonu I simply pick out the likes of Andrew Sheridan. Individual examples mean squat. I'm sure Ben Cohen can bench press more than Joe Rokocoko, but I know who I'd rather have in my team at the moment.

    Protein shake = supplement. You say you only take them occasionally, but why at all? I'm guessing it's not because your parents told you it was a good idea.

    I'm not just picking my argument out of thin air - ex players have come out and said that players focus too much on strength, hence falling skill levels.

    Your argument is flawed: weight training does not increase speed, sprint training does. Look at the fastest wongers in the world. I doubt they can lift more than Jerry Collins, but I sure as hell know who I would back in a race. Weight training does not increase your rucking proficiency, it's all about the technique. The front row of a scrum is a blinding obvious example of technique over bulk. Tom Smith is probably one of the smaller props in professional rugby, but for years he has been able to take apart his opposite number. This isn't because he goes to the gym to lift and push things non-stop, it's because he ups his skill level rather than just his muscle mass.
    [/b][/quote]

    Squats, Calf Raises, Dead Lifts all forms of lifting will make you faster when done apporpriately. Plyometrics a form of jumping/lifting using your own body weight will make you faster if done appropriaely. Every single player on the all blacks does Sprints, Squats, Calfs, Dead Lifts, and more than likely Plyometrics.

    Actually my parents suggested the protein shakes. I only take them after a big workout where i have increased a good deal of weight on maybe a few of the lifts i do. Usually they cut down on the time for recovery and leave you with less of a lactic acid pain loaded feeling the next day.
     
  15. You're not even an adult yet. Your body isn't ready for adult training. I'm 18 but wouldn't dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn't help) - it's far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
     
  16. DC

    DC Guest

    You're not even an adult yet. Your body isn't ready for adult training. I'm 18 but wouldn't dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn't help) - it's far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
    [/b][/quote]

    I love lifting, i think its really actually quite fun..
     
  17. You're not even an adult yet. Your body isn't ready for adult training. I'm 18 but wouldn't dream of spending that much of my life in the gym (I also find it very boring, which doesn't help) - it's far healthier to let your natural recovery time elapse before you train again.
    [/b][/quote]

    I love lifting, i think its really actually quite fun..
    [/b][/quote]

    I can see how the variation and mental challenge it provides could be very stimulating.
     
  18. Rugby_Cymru

    Rugby_Cymru Guest

    What do you mean "why at all?"?
    I am on DC's side here. DC may not be an adult yet, but it's proven that youngsters will benefit greatly from lifting weights (not excessively heavy ones, of course) and that it only helps with the growth process rather than stunting their growth as so many people believe. A kids growth is stunted only if they do heavy weights.
    Have a look around (at least in my area) schools are encouraging kids to use weight machines etc. Honestly it's good for them.
    Now you do understand the need for protein, right?
    If DC didn't take protein after his workout then his body would experience muscle breakdown. He's decided (and advisedly so) to work out in the gym, therefore his body needs replenishment...this comes in the form of protein shakes.
    I mean, what happens to you if you don't eat? Your body goes for your reserves - it's a last resort, but it's willing to do so to survive. If DC didn't take a protein shake wtihin 20 mins after workout then he would most certainly have to eat very soon after, otherwise his whole gym session would have just gone to waste because the muscles need to repair and the body wouldn't be able to do so because it doens't have the nutrients with which to do so. The body uses protein fibres to repair and when it has been through a tough workout it will have already used up quite a bit of protein to help it, but post-work out it needs a boost of protein and this comes (quickly) in the form of whey protein.
    I am quite passionate about the gym and all the benefits it has and how to make those benefits as effective as possible.
    Both me and the boys in work wake up to a protein shake, then have breakfast. Have another protein shake at 11am. Lunch at 1pm. Potein shake 1hr/30mins prior to work out. Protein shake 20 mins after work out. Evening meal. Late night (carb free(healthy)) snack. Whey protein mixed with milk OR Casein protein right before bed.
    This is a constant (and balanced) intake of protein, carbs and sugars designed to meet our training.

    If i were to say anything to DC it wouldn't be to lighten off, infact i'd tell you to keep working just as hard as you are and even push yourself further. Also, up your intake of protein. The more you eat the bigger you'll get. FACT. But control what you eat and when you eat it and then you'll get big in the way you want (especially considering you're 16...perfectly old enough to start weight lifting and packing on those lb's of muscle.)
    A minimum should in my eyes should be that you should take a protein shake after every work out.


    How did you come to the conclusion that it's "healthier for you?"
    There's nothing UNNATURAL about taking protein shakes. Having a protein shake IS allowing your natural recovery time to work. There is nothing "healthier" about avoiding protein shakes, trust me.
    As long as your not "roiding it up" increasing your recovery rate thanks to increased testosterone levels then taking the protein is ideal.


    I don't mean to sound over-critical, but i get the feeling that you are arguing an issue that you haven't done any reading on and you are bringing DC down on a subject which he's is mostly correct on.

    Plus, i say, copy the professional rugby players.
    Better than copying Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman!
    The rugby players are doing it right.

    Supplement does NOT = steroid-esque drug.
     
  19. DC

    DC Guest

    I was thinking of starting by drinking the whey protein shakes before my workouts as i used to do, mix it with a little milk and it can really do wonders for you. Mine actually taste pretty good to!!

    The reason i enjoy lifting weights is because every time i put up a rep i think each one of these is making me better than my opposing number in the league and anyone im up against in the country. It is such a satisfying feeling being able to put up weight you had been struggling with.

    Heres what i lift:
    Bench 165 lbs
    Curl 25 lbs
    Lat Pull Down 200
    Tricep Pull Down 85
    Milatary Press 75... its hard!!!
    Shrugs not really a accurate measurment as i dont have enough weight but i do a 30 in each hand and just build up the muscle
    Tricep Behind the Head Not Sure What They Are Called 30
    Alt Curls 20 lbs
    Calf Raises

    then i do Nordic Track Trainer with decent tension, a great leg workout..
     
  20. Yeah I know nothing, ignore me.

    I haven't seen anyone I know put themselves out of rugby for life by pushing their body too hard too early.

    Nope.

    I haven't seen anyone admitted to hospital for overuse of shakes et al (not supplements apparently)

    As for the need for protein - eat more red meat!

    Copy the training of professional players at your age and you'll end up in the same situation as Jonny Wilkinson, crippled by injury in your mid-twenties.
     
  21. Rugby_Cymru

    Rugby_Cymru Guest

    That'a a pretty closed minded argument.

    I'm not endorsing over-training, not in the slightest.
    Every body needs rest. A body part should always receive 2/3 days rest after a work out and if you organise your schedule properly you can achieve that and still work out 6 days a week.
    But it's really helpful for your body if you can take of 4/5 days totally free from training every few months - altho that's tough coz the gym is so addictive.

    Eat more red meat? Yeah, fair enough, but do you have any idea how slow it takes to digest and for the protein fibres to get to the muscles? Evidently you don't.
    A protein shake is ideal. Whey protein is absorbed quickly and will help you out.
    Plus, if you want more protein, just try and eat more red meat:
    1) You'll see how tough it is to up your meal counts per day.
    2) All that red meat will do WONDERS for your body!!! :rolleyes:

    Ok, Johnny Wilkinson is your example.
    My example is ever other player in academies, just left academies, youngesters in the game etc etc.
    Johnny Wilkinson confesses that he trains obsessively...who else does that?
    No one...and i doubt DC is doing that either.
    Players are dedicated to their careers, but they don't get crippled in their game because of their strict and tough regime.
    You've got to push yourself to reach new plateau's.
    Don't let yourself confuse "hard training" with "over-triaining".




    Yeah, using milk wtih your protein shake is a good idea. Milk has the casein protein in it and it has a slow release time. If you take protein shake with milk about an hour before training, you will see the benefits.
    If you take it any sooner you will be getting the protein AFTER yor workout...but during the work out there won't be much in supply.
    I personally advise shake after work out...to be taken with water.
     
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