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Do we need a draft?

Horacito

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Oct 12, 2014
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Argentina
I've searched for this topic around and haven't found anything, so here I go:

would rugby union be better if we were a bit more like american sports, creating expectations and spectacle about players, making them into stars before they even plays as pros? Would it be bettet if there was a "game of thrones" of GM's, a political side in the sport?

I think we should change a couple of things, but in general, is what we need. Rugby is a universitary sport, it has spread through grammar schools over the world and most players already have a universitary career, so there's the ground to build from. We should make it obligatory to end studies or at least be a senior to present to the draft.

ideas anybody?
 
Rugby is a universitary sport, it has spread through grammar schools over the world and most players already have a universitary career, so there's the ground to build from.

Errr... I can't speak for the Argentinian system, but that is definitely not the case over here, and I'd venture to say in the vast majority of tier 1 nations too.

You could potentially do it from the academies, but that would require a quantum shift in the way the game is run.
 
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Terrible idea as the whole point of the clubs investing in youth is that they stay at the club.

If you then guarantee the fact your going to take away the youth and send them else where why would the clubs invest?

The current system works really well. London Irish create great players and we other clubs steal them. That's fine for me
 
Theres 2 possible responses to this question. A glib one and one more thought out

A) No, the current system works and produces the quality players for the future

B.) No. The system used in the major leagues in the States is unique to their culture regarding developing players. For American Footballers/Basketballers/Soccer players in high schools in the states they are recruited to possible colleges because of their sporting ability primarily. To such an extent I saw a player in a college football game list his degree as being in "University Studies".

Here you go to a Uni for academic reasons and any sports teams you represent are 100% secondary to academia (in theory). The more gifted future rugby, footballers, cricketers will already be part of a clubs setup, be it on an Academy basis, pre contract or the like so will already be on the track to joining a team. As the lads above me have posted, theres no incentive for an Academy to spend time and effort training someone from say 13 to 20 years old just for a different club to step in and get that player with a draft. I don't know exactly but I guess there's a compensation scheme if a player moves clubs at the end of a contract.

C.) We don't need a draft, It's nice and warm in here
 
What also makes it more difficult is that in those sports (not soccer, but the big four in North America), they have the best leagues by far. In rugby, just like in soccer, that isn't that clear. So unlike you limit it to players from the respective countries (good luck with that in the EU), I don't see how that can work.
 
What also makes it more difficult is that in those sports (not soccer, but the big four in North America), they have the best leagues by far. In rugby, just like in soccer, that isn't that clear. So unlike you limit it to players from the respective countries (good luck with that in the EU), I don't see how that can work.

Exactly.

The US Collegiate system is unique.
 
So stupid! Americans make the draft in sports where they are the number one power by far.

Their sport system at the university level is unique and unrepeatable worldwide. Universities in USA are willing to release their top players to multimillionaire businessmen owners of sports franchises. Around the world, things are different. USA is a different world
 
You just cant compare college football to university rugby.

And then academy's are run by clubs, not seperate bodies/institutions so it'd be massively unfair to take a guy found/scouted/trained by Leicester and give him to London Welsh
 
Ten answers is a decent margin to get some points, some of them repetitive. Let's see:

-Sports culture is different in USA: true, but is different because they have a different structure. Human organization shapes actions and beliefs of the people who live within them. Change structures is difficult but possible, it takes a lot of effort and will but it ultimetly works.
It is certain that sports in USA have a better economic and even athletic performance: comparing rugby to NFL or NBA o NHL is just laughable. They make much more money with smaller audience and they're getting better every year. Athleticly as well: NFL is the world's greatest league in terms of athletisism. That is a fact.

-Current system works: it does, but is imperfect and to much football alike, and football is the most ineffectively structured sport in the world, the only reason it's succesfull is because they are the biggest by audience; you can't do it wrong when your audience is 2 billion people. Rugby works kind of like that: academies and clubs breed great players in order to get them stealed by a richest and biggest clubs. It has already begin to happen: somebody just won three EPCR/ Heineken in a row and the only reason they did it is because they have an Abramovich over there to get literaly every superstar they can afford within the salary borders.

I tried to condensate everything there. Let's try it from here folks.

And just to sum it: when somebody does better than you in almost every aspect, there is no good reason not to try to emulate them, or at leat try to take what you like and throw away what you don't.
 
I think it's a D(r)aft idea!!

In SA we use a provincial system when the kids are still in school. The province in which they go to school has first right to sign that player, if that province for instance doesn't want him, then any other province can tender for that player and then the choice rests with the player himself.

Also not every province has a university, and some provinces have more than one (Western Province has 2, Gauteng has 5). Most players are signed to a union when they graduate from high school. while they are signed at a union, they can attend university or not (depends on their academic qualifications). If they are enrolled as a student they can play Varsity Cup as well as play Vodacom Cup for their union as well as U/18 and U/20 tournaments. During their contract the union can renew his contract, give him a senior contract or release him to go to another union or just play Club rugby.

Most senior players in SA are student athletes, but they are a student first and foremost. They are well aware that a proffessional rugby career is very short and that it will not provide sufficient income to retire after rugby. For example, Jannie Du Plessis is a qualified doctor with a degree in medicine. After his rugby career, he will be working as a full time doctor.

It won't work in SA. end.
 
So much stupidity here. First of all in Argentina, rugby isn't a college sport since most of the teams are independent clubs.

Most of the players are college students don't mean that universities invest in rugby. In fact the biggest universities such as UBA or UCA don't invest money in rugby and aren't interested in our sport.

Only isolated cases as the University of San Andrés, which has their own rugby team, doesn't mean that rugby here is a college sport.

Second, I think that you don't follow the NFL so you don't much to say about it. This year there is an Aussie Rugby League player on the Niners, Jarryd Hayne. The NFL scouts were impressed with his athleticism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNrRpZ6J5ao&feature=youtube_gdata_player

While Hayne wasn't at the NFL Combine, his US manager Jack Bechta tweeted that Hayne's 40-yard sprint time of 4.53 seconds would have been among the top five running backs at the combine. He wrote: "had client/rugby league phenom*hayne run at the NFL Combine he would have finished in top 5 in running backs based US times" - jack bechta February 24, 2015

http://m.smh.com.au/rugby-league/le...otential-nfl-talent-pool-20150224-13nj3b.html

Rugby and American football are completely different sports. American Football is pure explosion, movements lasts few seconds while in rugby, the action lasts longer, making it more aerobic sport.

The workouts are different, tailored to different results. Comparing them would be ridiculous. NFL players are better on skills for their own sport and rugby players are better on skills for their own sport, for example rugby player has greater cardiovascular endurance than a NFL player.

However, in rugby we have great athletes that have nothing to envy to the NFL players:

Carlin Isles (US rugby player) at the 40 yards is faster than the faster NFL players ever:

Carlin Isles 4.22

Rondel Melendez 4.24

Chris Johnson 4.24

Even is faster than Usaint Bolt at the 40 yards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1pEI0kvyBM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
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There really is not much difference between the current professional rugby and NFL in athletic terms, here I leave an interesting note of Nic Gill, an S&C rugby coach talking about it:

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/4531008/All-Blacks-measure-up-for-American-football

All Blacks measure up for American football

SIZE: Adrian Peterson, the Minnesota running back, is a mere 96kg and 1.78m, while All Black Hosea Gear is 100kg and 1.88cm.

American football has become a popular topic in New Zealand's professional rugby ranks.
Among the All Blacks' northern tour squad late last year a dozen of the players jumped at the chance to attend the match between the San Francisco 49ers and the Denver Broncos at Wembley Stadium in London.
Like excited fanatics, they gathered outside the team hotel in Kensington dressed in the official team jerseys of their favourite sides.
No doubt enthusiasts like Cory Jane, who fancies himself as a safety in another life, will be watching the NFL playoffs closely in coming weeks.
Jane reckons many of the All Blacks often talk about which position they might play if they were to give rugby's oval ball cousin a try and whether they would be fast enough and strong enough to foot it with the super athletes they watch on Monday Night Football.
Ten years ago such comparisons would have been fanciful.
The NFL has always been a land of giants.
Many will remember William "The Fridge" Perry, of Chicago Bears fame in the mid-1980s. Back then he weighed 210kg and benched 211kg in the gym.

Fast forward to now, and recently retired Dallas Cowboys offensive lineman Larry Allen has since recorded a single lift bench press of 318.2kg, while Carolina Panthers guard Justin Geisinger did 43 repetitions at 102.3kg in the NFL's "as many as you can" challenge.
They are simply staggering numbers.
But while it's impractical and unlikely that rugby props will ever grow to such mammoth proportions, the athletic comparison of an NFL superstar and an All Black has never been closer.
Jonah Lomu may have been the prototype, rumoured to have been chased by the Dallas Cowboys after the 1995 Rugby World Cup, but his size and strength are becoming commonplace in the All Blacks' ranks.
No-one knows this better than long-time All Blacks strength and conditioning coach Nic Gill.
His current stable includes the hulking frames of Sonny Bill Williams, Ma'a Nonu, Hosea Gear, Isaia Toeava and Brad Thorn.
Gill's been involved for the past decade in designing programmes to allow optimum performance on the field and perhaps it's no coincidence that he's cradling a giant plastic bottle of the muscle-building product Creatine as he sits down to discuss the advent of the "super athlete" in rugby union.
"When I started 10 years ago the rugby players couldn't tolerate the training because they would just fall over," he explains.
"They had no training history, no background. Now we have athletes that have four, five, six, seven years of training behind them before they get here and they can handle it and can start producing better performances.
"That's the difference. Guys are getting educated a lot earlier in New Zealand. Our high performance programme and development programme through the country is producing kids with great knowledge, great work ethic and great habits.
"If they are motivated they now have the tools to go on to become better athletes."
And bigger ones.
"If you look at our backline now, the trend over the last, I don't know, 14 years, since we've been professional, the average-size backs would have been 85kg. Now our backline averages about 100kg and they are running faster.
"The loose forwards around the country are quicker than they've ever been. Adam Thomson, Liam Messam, Kieran Read, they are extremely explosive.
"Read has an impressive build, he's big, and over 10 metres is very impressive. How would our guys match up over there with the same training? I'm not sure, but we are getting closer to a true professional sport."
A COMPARISON of similar positions proves the size differences are minimal for the most part between an All Black and an NFL player.
Gear (1.88cm, 100kg), Nonu (1.82m, 104kg) and Williams (1.91m, 108kg), for example, are similar in speed to an NFL running back.
Take Adrian Peterson of the Minnesota Vikings, at 1.78m and 96kg. Dallas's Felix Jones is 1.78m, 99kg, Rashard Mendenhall of the Pittsburgh Steelers, 1.78m, 102kg.
The wide receivers are smaller still. Danny Amendola of St Louis is 1.80m, 84kg, similar in size to Jane (1.83m, 91kg), while Santonio Holmes of the New York Jets is 1.80m and 87kg.
Tightends are bigger â€" John Carlson of Seattle, 1.96m, 113kg, similar to Anthony Boric (2m, 113kg) or Jerome Kaino (1.96m, 109kg) â€" while Jermaine Gresham of the Cincinnati Bengals is 1.96m and 118kg.
Sprint times have closed too.
The NFL record for the 40m dash stands at 4.24sec, a mark shared by Atlanta Falcons wide receiver Rondel Melendez in 1999 and running back Chris Johnson of the Tennessee ***ans in 2008.
Rugby is not great at providing such stats, but Sosene Anesi is said to have posted the fastest 40m recorded in New Zealand rugby with 4.53sec, while Joe Rokocoko once clocked 4.66sec.
Legends abound about Lomu's pace, but he did clock 10.8sec over 100m when he was at school, not quite as quick as Rokocoko at 10.66sec, or Bryan Habana's 10.4sec.
Gill believes Polynesians provide a unique genetic set for contact sport, but is unsure if rugby will ever match the African American gene pool for pure speed.
"With the genetics you get probably a greater number of fast twitch fibres, longer Achilles, smaller calves, bigger gluts, so you are a born runner.
"If you watch the game, where they are quick is in changing direction and accelerating. The running backs are very quick off the mark, and have very good stepping ability."
HE DOESN'T want rugby players getting as big as the NFL's behemoths, the offensive and defensive linemen or left and right tackles.
"Those guys benching 200kg plus are massive men, they will be weighing 150kg themselves, so they are big, big boys, so they are closer to an Olympic power-lifter. When you see a photo of them after they celebrate they are jumping two metres in the air. These big, fat, unassuming athletes can create huge amounts of force very quickly, so they can run very fast for 10 metres.
"It [tackling them] would be like being hit by a truck. The difference is they are powerful with huge mass. How big you are and how fast you can move that body creates momentum."
Such short efforts would be no use to a rugby side, but Gill says the increasing size of rugby's professionals is bringing the game closer to the NFL.
"In a collision it is the quicker you can move your body. When there are two guys the same size the faster one is the one who will dominate the collision.
"That's where rugby is headed. What's changed is we have guys running fast but they are 15kg heavier.
"They aren't necessarily quicker, but the collision is that much more significant because there is more size running the same speed."

Where the two sports differ most, however, says Gill, is in their training techniques, with rugby requiring a far greater aerobic component.
"I was at the Denver Broncos this year and how they train is completely different to how we train. You say they post some impressive numbers, but that's because they are training specifically for that one thing.
"What I mean by that is, for example, the furthest they ran in a week was 1km. They do 10 100m sprints the day after a game and that's it. That's their conditioning.
"The philosophy, which is different to ours, is that their athletes might do 50 to 60 five-second tasks in a game, so it's all maximum anaerobic explosiveness, and that's over four hours.
"So it's all about one-off efforts. Ours is explosive efforts repetitively without rest so you are not going to reach the same levels of explosiveness.
"It's a different training hence different numbers, but have we got a level where we have similarly professional athletes? Yes, we are getting close."
 
I was expecting for you to come with Argentina.

People who play rugby in Arg is burgoise/ small burgoise who ends up studying liberal professions -lawyer, architect, doctor, economics-, they already head to college when they leave high school, wouldn't it be perfect if college supported those kids with studentships in exchange of their sports skills? uh? This is about social class, and social class who plays rugby heads to college, why not to make it easier? Because of clubs, who are a remanent of the amateur sport.

NFL is convenient for your argument: 30 sec plays totally different from long time efforts like rugby, but what if you take it to any minoritarian sport like any of those they make so many medalls from in every olympic game, right? Swimming, pole vault, running, jumping, gimnastics... take it anywere you like and university sport makes the difference.

Doesn't Australia do the same thing to get the best female swimmers in the world? Correct me if I'm wrong in this one, please.

Also you haven't solved the problem of concentration of power within one sole team like it's currently happening in France, for example.
 
Stop talking about the NFL, you know nothing about it and don't even know the athletic level of elite rugby players. I showed the opinion of a renowned S&C coach like Nic Gill about it. Shut up
 
US colleges are financed differently than universities in many other countries where it's mostly the state that pays. Just compare their study fees to a country like France where studying is free for anyone from the EU. College sports are big business, they make tons of money while the players don't (really) participate in it. Good luck with that at state-funded unis, that'll lead to a lot of opposition for sure. Scholarships also aren't as common everywhere and even many Americans find it questionable that athletes are preferred that much when it comes to receiving them, in a country without that tradition, that would be even more the case.
 
US colleges are financed differently than universities in many other countries where it's mostly the state that pays. Just compare their study fees to a country like France where studying is free for anyone from the EU. College sports are big business, they make tons of money while the players don't (really) participate in it. Good luck with that at state-funded unis, that'll lead to a lot of opposition for sure. Scholarships also aren't as common everywhere and even many Americans find it questionable that athletes are preferred that much when it comes to receiving them, in a country without that tradition, that would be even more the case.

You have raised the most interesting and important point so far, my friend. Let me say something: I believe in public education: liberté, egalité, fraternité, that is what I believe. But even public universities recieve founds from private investors, right? Couldn't we privatize sports departments?

I know I am probably going way too far or simply being ridiculous, but it's the only possible solution I can come up with. In your wonderful country you don't even pay fees to get to college right? Awesome
 
Wow...really piling on!

Kind of like the idea of doing something other than changing the rules to raise the profile

I enjoy watching 1st xv rugby and seeing how those guys advance would be cool
 

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