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England 2021/22

Well, if limited to the last 10 years (hardly my definition of "a long history", but whatever), then Tuilagi, Joseph (who absolutely was a world beater for a time) and Slade really isn't a bad selection - even if Slade is still more on paper than on grass.

Going back further, then Tait, Tindall and Noon really weren't the problem when played at 13 (nor was Greenwood, though he was a 12 playing 13 when played alongside Catt), further back still and you're straight into the Guscott years.
Listing a bunch of 12s doesn't help your point that 13 is the problem position.
From your list of 13s, out of Burrell, Farrell, Barritt, Banahan and Hape - how many England games total were at 13? Tindall and Noon, whilst fine at 13, and theoretically fine at 12, had to spend far too much time playing alongside each other and hampering the entire backline by doing so.


ETA: Please remember, the conversation has gone:
Zootalaws: England has never struggled to find centres
DSLD: England has always struggled to find centres
WT: I think he means 13s specifically, England have a long history of producing good uns
DSLD: how many great 13s have we produced either in the last 10 years

That's quite some moving of goal posts there. from "Never struggle to find" through "long history of producing good uns" to "greats in the last 10 years". Remember, injuries aside Guscott > Tindall > Tuilagi is an unbroken run of 1st choice 13s going back to 1989
I really can't believe you are defending the statement that England have never struggled to find centres. We have, listing 3 centres proves the point. We have never even had two good ones to choose from at the same time. Since 2003 we have never had a top 12 and 13 who are defiantly first choice with backups. Compare that to NW or SA who had plenty of options throughout that time.
 
I really can't believe that you haven't read what it is written. Nor can I believe that you're genuinely that shocked by someone having a different opinion to yourself.
Listing 3 Outside centres proves what point exactly? oh, and which 3? I name checked 8.
Who said you need 2 good uns in order to field 1?
There's no point talking about 12s when the entire point of the discussion is 13s.
I didn't know this discussion about England's players was supposed to include NZ's and SA's

Please stop moving the goal posts, and read what was written (or at least, reply as if you had taken on board what was written).
I'm perfectly happy to have a difference of opinion as to whether, for example, Tindall or Joseph count as "good" or not; but by moving the goal posts and not reading what you respond to, it makes it kinda difficult to construct an argument.
IMO Guscott was a good outside centre, and PDG was... an acceptable backup given the standards of the time.
IMO Noon and Tindall were 2 good outside centres at the same time.
IMO Tuilagi and Joseph were 2 good outside centres at the same time.
 
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i thought JJ was class when he hit form...and was one of the reasons our attack functioned.

Hopefully Marchant can replace that....
Yes, if we play another strong 12 as well.
With Malins at 15 it means we have the distributor at 15.
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Lawrence
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Malins

Would be a great back line.
 
See i still really fancy Steward for that 15 spot. Just think he has the potential to be the brick wall at the back...but also looks to have some real potential as a runner and offloader in attacking plays. Maybe not the "playmaker" Jones seems to want there...but we can find that elsewhere....
 
Yeah, I'm definitely on the Steward hype train too
I reckon Eddie will play Malins on the left wing
 
Genge has been named as the captain of the Tigers for the upcoming season. I hope he goes well and puts his hand up as a future England captaincy option; I tend to like captains in the pack, Could be hard for him to wrest the starting shirt off of Mako or Marler, though.
 
Genge has been named as the captain of the Tigers for the upcoming season. I hope he goes well and puts his hand up as a future England captaincy option; I tend to like captains in the pack, Could be hard for him to wrest the starting shirt off of Mako or Marler, though.
Hes got to actually get the starting prop spot first! He might be the baby rhino in the prem...but hes not showing up much at international level....

Hes not a patch on Marler at that level....
 
Hes got to actually get the starting prop spot first! He might be the baby rhino in the prem...but hes not showing up much at international level....

Hes not a patch on Marler at that level....
To be fair to him, he has started showing it in patches internationally now. It's very rare that bulldozing players at lower levels are able to translate it to higher levels straight away due to the increased level of the competition.
 
Your completely right...i dont actually expect that level of performance translated up to the international stage. But he's not r3eally showing much of his other attributes either...like his scrummaging etc.

Joe Marler was a similar player in the u20 age ranges - a beast of a carrier...but totally transformed his game in to a formidable scrummager and defensive player. I think Genge needs to maybe follow the same path...
 
Your completely right...i dont actually expect that level of performance translated up to the international stage. But he's not r3eally showing much of his other attributes either...like his scrummaging etc.

Joe Marler was a similar player in the u20 age ranges - a beast of a carrier...but totally transformed his game in to a formidable scrummager and defensive player. I think Genge needs to maybe follow the same path...

I think it will come with time and international exposure. Plus if we can make a gameplan that gives a little more space, Genge is very difficult to stop once he had made a half break.
 
I'm somewhere in between on Genge. I think he is starting to show up more for England, but I'd also say that most of his more eye catching moments have come against weaker opposition. It's one thing making good breaks against Canada or the USA and doing it against top sides.

Joe Marler is a interesting one.
Best Loosehead in England but question marks over commitment.
'Commitment' is an interesting choice of words. As I see it, he is just more committed to his family than he is to England. I think he would have taken recent call-ups if they hadn't involved being in a bubble for weeks at a time.
 
I'm somewhere in between on Genge. I think he is starting to show up more for England, but I'd also say that most of his more eye catching moments have come against weaker opposition. It's one thing making good breaks against Canada or the USA and doing it against top sides.


'Commitment' is an interesting choice of words. As I see it, he is just more committed to his family than he is to England. I think he would have taken recent call-ups if they hadn't involved being in a bubble for weeks at a time.
I agree, I dont doubt his commitment as i believe he will gove 100% for England when he plays and trains. Its about his priorities and he prioritises family over international rugby after a good career.

But i wouldnt say when he plays he is worse, that said he kind of needs to be moved from the conversation because he obv doesnt want to be away.

Genge could be a good replacement to him, not to his level in scrummaging yet but also not bad at all and a better carrier. Genge has work to do for sure but he is our best option and i cznt see anyone overtaking him who isnt already ahead.
 
I'm somewhere in between on Genge. I think he is starting to show up more for England, but I'd also say that most of his more eye catching moments have come against weaker opposition. It's one thing making good breaks against Canada or the USA and doing it against top sides.


'Commitment' is an interesting choice of words. As I see it, he is just more committed to his family than he is to England. I think he would have taken recent call-ups if they hadn't involved being in a bubble for weeks at a time.
Im actually not bothered about the flashy stuff from Genge. I may be old fashioned but i much prefer a destructive beast at prop, with aggressive fringe defence etc...very much like what Marler has become.
I think Genge has the ability to be that...and id like to see him really focus on those aspects firstly at this level, then bring in his carrying etc.
 
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Yeah, I'm definitely on the Steward hype train too
I reckon Eddie will play Malins on the left wing
If Slade plays at 13 do we need Malins.
I think they are more in opposition for a place, due to similarity, even if in a different position.
 
Genge is still young, tbf
Marler took a while to reach real top levels

What he needs is more exposure at international level - whether he'll get that while Mako is still dragging himself around the pitch is another thing


If Slade plays at 13 do we need Malins.
What we need rarely factors into what EJ does,
He regularly played Daly at 11 with Brown at 15,
I could see him replicating that with Malins/Steward
 
Genge is still young, tbf
Marler took a while to reach real top levels

What he needs is more exposure at international level - whether he'll get that while Mako is still dragging himself around the pitch is another thing
Yeah...IF Marler can confirm his availability all the way through...then i would move Mako aside and have Marler really "mentor" Genge through.

Then look at the others...Obano, West etc...see who really steps up this season.
 
Yeah...IF Marler can confirm his availability all the way through...then i would move Mako aside and have Marler really "mentor" Genge through.

Then look at the others...Obano, West etc...see who really steps up this season.
Marler and Genge would be great working together, very similar characters. Work hard, play hard attitudes should be a great benefit to Genge.
 

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